davywavy | Thoughts on that Europe Referendum

Thoughts on that Europe Referendum

I’ve always regarded voting as being rather like sex, in that I get to do it once every four or five years, usually by myself, in private, and it doesn’t take very long but the consequences always seem to haunt me for some time afterwards.
And, quite frankly, I can name a large number of people whom I do not think should be allowed to do either ever again.

However, I cannot hide my pleasure at Tony Blair’s recent U-turn announcement that there will be a public referendum on Europe. Despite Tony’s insistence, only last year, that he has ‘no reverse gear’, the scale of this U-Turn is impressive, Then again, it’s long been clear that the relationship between words and their meanings holds little interest for members of the current government and so I suppose we can’t be too surprised when they end up doing the exact opposite of what they say they’re going to. I’m sure that the students reading this will be only too delighted they voted labour last time round, secure in the manifesto assurance that Blair remained ‘irrevocably opposed’ to top up fees. After all, it’s not like they’re going to have to pay them, is it now?
I’m getting off topic. Europe.
A lot of people reading this will be too young to remember a time when Europe and its constituent members were an attractive proposition, but such a time there was and I’m glad that the British government has, only perhaps fifteen years behind the times, moved to recognize this. I can remember the relative merits of Europe getting a lot of debate when I was at school, back in the late 1980s’. At one stage we even mounted a small and ineffectual campaign for a vote on this very subject. You might be surprised at the sophistication of a bunch of sixth-formers but believe me, the knotty question of whether Joey Tempest was sexier than Jon bon Jovi was an oft-argued one in our common room.
It’s taken a while for the government to come round to looking at the same problem. It’s a shame it didn’t happen four or five years ago when a millennium re-release of ‘The Final Countdown’ barely made a dent in the charts, but still we finally get what we radical students were campaigning for, fifteen years ago. An answer to the eternal question: Just who are better? Europe, or Bon Jovi?

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The pro-Europeans say that a vote for Bon Jovi means we have to throw all our Europe albums away.

Livin' on a Prayer, baby!

Yeah, we've got to keep the faith.

I wouldn't want to get shot down in a blaze of glory

Don't worry, I've got some bad medicine for that.

I'll need that after my one wild night

I think we're at a bit of a Crossroads

Better move on, before we're shot through the heart

Yeah, but you'd be to blame.

You'd need a miracle to save you now.

You're both terrible, and my roomate is awful for making me not break your run.

Oh, Neil and I have been in and out of love for years...

I've heard that two men in love gives love a bad name.

Perhaps you could lay your hands on me, then?

Wow, I've no idea how to reply to that. You really got me now.

Well, this ain't a love song, but it will be for always.

Alas, my one album seems to be giving out on me! Dying ain't much of a living, but it seems to be what I'm doing here.

Alas, I have a near-eidetic knowldege of late 80's and early 90's poodle-rock; mainly due to have been one myself

Same, for the stuff I listened to, or at least heard... which doesn't much include Bon Jovi.

Ahem - getting back to the politics....

Having lived in Belgium for 3 years in the 90s, I only wish that this referendum was going to be about monetary union too. Not so much to force a decision on the thing, but some that we can have some decently aired public debate about the merrits of full integration.

Blair has prevaricated long enough. It so annoys me that the pulic at large is so ill-informed about the issues. Not their fault either. I remember when the Maastricht Treaty was being signed, that we were supposed to get some reasonable analysis on what the issues were - no such luck. Am I peeing in the wind by hoping that this time round we might actually get quality air time, relevant to all levels of understanding?

Unless they up and dump the Common Agricultural Policy, I'm not even going to consider a Yes vote.

I'm not very up to date with british politics, can someone in short explain to me how most British people feel about Europe? And what the exact referendum will be?

How most british people feel? I don't know, I'm only one of them :)

Overall, most people are at best sceptical, i think.

The referendum is over whether or not we accept the European constitution (which, if we did, would effectively override national sovereignity and all we could hope for then is that the European community as a whole is nice to us). The main political parties are all stressing that a 'no' viote on teh constitution will not mean british withdrawl from the EU, mainly because they're expecting a no vote.

Hm. Is the European constitution that different from the British constitution then? I mean, I must admit so far only having seen the advantages of being part of the EU. Being able to go work in another country (which I'm seriously considering), cheaper fares to travel to other countries, no more having to change money when one travels abroad. And on a personal level, no major laws have been changed/inflicted.
Does this also mean the Blair government is for or against EU?

Buaaah, I feel like a total ignorant in the whole British vs EU discussion. Correction, I AM a total ignorant.

Blair is publically for, but her realises that to push it would probably lose him the next election.
The fact of the matter is that we British are
a) Insular
b) possessed of a sufficiently successful economy that really we see no immediate benefits to EU or Euro membership and
c) convinced we're better than everyone else.

The fact is the joining the Eu will probably damage our immediate interests, but will demonstrate benefits to our grandchildren. And when was the last time you saw any political decision based on the feelings of people living 100 years hence?

I completely agree with a) and c). As for the economy, I read a bit on bbb.co.uk (thanks for the link) and apparently not everyone thinks like that. OK, it might be a minority, but still. People also fear that there will be lots of cheap workers, but on the other hand, the admittance of new countries to the EU will also mean a boost of the economy, I'm absolutely sure of that. My company, which exports mainly to EU countries, is thrilled about those new states. And yep, we don't export to the UK.

And indeed, political decisions are rarely based on the feelings towards the future, most of the time they're based on things that happened like in the Middle Ages. Cause honestly I think that a lot of those British antipathy (does that exist in english?) goes way back.

The expansion of the EU may or may not mean a boost to the economy; a fair real-world anology would be the establishment of NAFTA to include Mexico; the effect of the economy of the US and Canada has been fairly small, but it's been much more noticable for Mexico. Certainly, in the short term, the gains will be to the newly joined members.
However, this isn't the question being presented. The question is, does the Uk accept the EU Constitution. As i haven't read it yet, I don't know what my answer will be. However, my heart is fairly anti- the largely unaccountable and corrupt bureaucracy that I see from over here. Like I say, without significant reform of the CAP and internal auditing structures (the EU's internal accounts have not been signed in 9 years. 9 Years!) I wouldn't want to get any more involved than we really have to.

OK, OK, I got sidetracked. However, the whole situation annoyed me immensely, the UK always wanted in from the beginning, seemed afraid to be left out, but when it came down to it, they only wanted in on their own terms and that's not quite right either. Of course there will be problems (one bigger than the other, didn't know about internal accounts not having been signed for that long and quite shocked by it!) but any community this large will have problems. In terms of politics the EU is merely a baby. And babies need time to grow, I only hope its education will be up to standars in due time.
And how many people do you think won't get sidetracked like I did about this whole referendum? I think more than could be acceptable.

Personally, I think we made an error 35 years ago and, when de Gualle vetoed our initial application, should ahve formed a similar free-trade bloc with the Commonwealth. However, history can't be changed.

I don't think necessarily we want to be in on our terms - we just don't want to be in on someone elses. There's a difference. There is no feeling within the UK of being any sort of equal partner, and, until that is addressed, I think the debate is going to be negative.

Ah yes, but that's a vicious circle, because as far as other europeans are concerned (and here I'm speaking from the point of view of most people I talked to about this) the UK can't be considered an equal partner since they're not completely in either. And the fact of being an equal partner can't be touched as long as that doesn't happen. Somehow I feel we haven't seen the end of it yet.

I used to ahve a friend in the police whose job was to talk out people in seige situations. He once explained to me that the trick to his job was understanding how the person holed up saw the world; most people would see the person under seige as being intractable and difficult, entrenched and with a lot of power - the reality is that the person under seige saw themselves as being helpless and surrounded by a hostile external agency, and to succeed in his job he had to relate to the person on their terms.
I think we're seeing a similar situation with Europe. Popular opinion in this country sees Europe as being a hostile external force which offers nothing postive and a lot of negative, whilst the view from Europe is of us being intractable and entrenched - and the dialogue from Europe in our direction reflects that, which in turn results in a stiffening of resolve to stay under sieige and not come out.
Unless the tone of the dialogue changes - from both directiosn, not just one way - I can't see great progres being made.

The information is out there, but unless you are specifically looking for it all you get are the simplified rhetoric the press likes to spout.

That's the problem. Being in Belgium, all we get here is what the press tells us. And well, should perhaps start browsing some british sites, but so far I only got one site on my faves list which is about politics and stuff, and it's a french one, so there I don't find any info either.
Oh, and did I tell you I am basically a very lazy person? :P

BBC.co.uk is usually a very good place to start.

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Thoughts on that Europe Referendum

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Ahem...

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Yep

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