Pontificating

[davywavy]

Perhaps it is the season for it, but I’ve seen a whole bunch of people referred to as ‘Nazis’ on the internet over the last week or so; Tony Blair, Robert Kilroy-Silk and the Veritas Party, The Conservative Party, the newly elected Pope Benedict and myself have all had the tag attached to them by various members of the hard-of-thinking classes scattered across Livejournal.
To call someone a Nazi is incredibly lazy intellectual shorthand; what it translates to is simple: “I personally disagree with you, but I lack the ability/willingness to actually elucidate why, so I’ll try and tar you with a particularly black brush.” More than twenty years after Rik Mayall satirized this sort of student-level point scoring in The Young Ones, it’s kinda sad to see that is hasn’t gone out of fashion. Much as I may personally dislike Tony Blair, it strikes me as a little harsh to suggest that he was complicit in the single greatest period of death and destruction that the human race has seen.
I wouldn’t rate him worse than third or fourth, to be honest.
There was a bit of an explosion in internet-land yesterday with more than one person on my friends list drawing attention to the fact that one of the above list, the new Pope, had actually been a member of the Hitler Youth and the Wehrmacht during the second world war, and that this in some way rendered him unfit to be Gods representative on Earth.*
It amazes me that people who are - at least on paper - very intelligent, can make this sort of accusation. The implication is that they’ve not bothered to actually do any research into the matter, and they have been suckered into some knee-jerk reaction by the popular press using the word ‘Nazi’. Needless to say, I’m very disappointed in everyone who has done so. I thought you were more intelligent than that. All of you.

They seem to have missed several pertinent facts of the case, which I’ll run by you here, just so there’s no confusion:
1) Accusation: Pope Benedict was a member of the Hitler Youth, and therefore a Nazi.
Membership of the Hitler youth was made compulsory for every child over the age of 9 in Germany and Austria in 1936; it would perhaps have been more surprising if Benedict had not been a member. As it was, the evidence suggests that he used his education as an excuse to have as little to do with the organization as possible.
The Hitler Youth was used as a propaganda tool by Goebbels, naturally, which is as valid as people dragging their kids along on the ‘Stop the War’ marches in 2002 to bring up the numbers but doesn't make the kids involved any more understanding of what they were a part of.

2) Pope Benedict was a member of the Wehrmacht and so, therefore, a Nazi and complicit in the holocaust and all that implies.
What shockingly lazy nonsense this is. It’s really easy to accuse all German soldiers as having been Nazis and having killed a couple of Jews each.
a) Benedict was a member of an anti-aircraft battery in the closing days of the war and deserted (an action punishable by death) when given the opportunity. To draw parallels between this and the guards at Belson is nonsense.
b) The great likelihood is that Benedict knew nothing of the holocaust or any atrocities. People may be surprised to learn this, but Der Bild did not print graphics of ‘Number of Jews and Russians killed today’ as presumably the Guardian would today. Instead, such actions were a closely guarded secret.
There is a well documented story of how Frau von Shirach (wife of Baldur von Schirach, founder of the Hitler Youth) mentioned to Hitler at a function that she had seen a train load of Jews leaving Holland. “I do hope they are not being mistreated”, she said. “They looked so unhappy.” Hitler didn’t reply, Frau von Shirach didn’t get invited to any more parties, and, more to the point, if someone so close to the Nazi inner circle had no idea of what was going on, then to suggest that a 17-year-old anti-aircraft gunner would know all about is just plan dumb.

Subsequent to all of this, Benedict has repeatedly condemned the Nazis, but why should people in LJ-land let the facts get in the way of a good bitch-fest? It has never stopped them before.

Similarly, a great many people seem to feel that they are in some way morally superior to the newly elected Pope. Now for me to claim moral superiority over pretty much anyone is comedy and I think that’s true of most of the people I know as well. To those who disagree with the Popes moral stance, my suggestion is that, if you feel your personal philosophy can bring greater spiritual peace, succour, and comfort to the poor and dispossessed of the world, then get out there and get preaching it, don’t just sit and whine on LJ. Who knows in 2000 years, they may be electing your spiritual successor.
Oddly most of the people who are setting themselves up as moral authorities are not Catholics and seem to know little of the Catholic faith. Well, nobody is forcing anyone to be a Catholic and, if you feel so strongly, there are plenty of religions out there which are less heavy on liturgy, ritual and spiritual comfort, but are much more sodomy and condom friendly. Get out, join one of them, and get active. If you reckon the application of your views would make the world a better place, there are much, much better places to talk about it than Livejournal.
I’d suggest the Church of England. It’s always done OK by me.


^{*Assuming that you’re a Catholic, anyway. As a Protestant I reckon that people should denounce the lies of Rome and accept that every man be his own priest, but that’s just me.}

Comments

*claps paws*

[blue-cat.livejournal.com]

nicely put

I'm finding it throughly amusing

[vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com]

Regardless of his type of involvement in WWII, he was still involved and just so happened to be on the wrong side of the war. There are a whole shitload of Jews out there who can't make coffee without talking about the Holocaust who are going to be deeply offended by his appointment. I'd like for someone to talk to the Cardinals and say 'Dude, did God really tell you to appoint a Nazi?!' and see what they say. It's not really going to do much for the RC church's er, relationship with a lot of Eastern Europe and the States. Oh and having an opinion on Palestine? They just got the old hard black leather boot. It's all about perception and most people really want to believe this guy was pulling gold Jewish teeth in the 40s. Best thing that ever happened to the Roman Catholics.

You are right though. The Nazi argument was permanently banned when I was a competition debater. Unofficially it was an instant loss. If you mentioned them at all you had better have a case planned around a little man with a funny moustache otherwise you were fucked. Due to that kind of conditioning it still fills me with ire. Milosevic became the next lazy villain. At least his evil wasn't entirely an argument truism. Doesn't anyone remember the Kosovars smuggling heroin?

[ketchgirl.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Well-phrased, concise and clear - oh, yes, and good points too ;)
*applauds*

Re: I'm finding it throughly amusing

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

I'd like for someone to talk to the Cardinals and say 'Dude, did God really tell you to appoint a Nazi?!'

He wasn't a Nazi. I suggest you re-read the above until that becomes clear.

And what are you surprised about? A religion ignoring the opinions of self-declared non-believers? If people care so much about who Pope is, their best bet is to become Catholics and try an dinfluence the process.
Or, alternatiely, do something, anything, to progress their own views.
Whining on LJ don't solve nothin'.

Salient point...

[ukporl.livejournal.com]

I.e. - the one that you're missing, is that he has scary eyes!

Really scary eyes!
Surely that counts for something?

Jewish perspective on Ratzinger

[vierkilau.livejournal.com]

I don't like Ratzinger as pope because of his views on abortion and homosexuality. I have no problem with him being in the Hitler Youth because as you quite correctly put it, it was compulsury, nor have I any issue with him being in the german army, most germans had no idea what was taking place and if he is anything like John Paul II was with his faith bridge building then he could be very good. It took less than 12 hours before there was slating, lets give the man a chance before we pass judgement

Current mood

[ukporl.livejournal.com]

Is 'back from the dead' a mood? What sort of territory is that in? The icon looks really unhappy. I'd have thought you'd be more looking sort of 'wow' if you rose from the dead. Or, at the very least, surprised?

No?
Well, I don't know - I haven't tried it myself yet. I want to save it for a day when people aren't expecting it. Mostly to see the looks on their faces.

Re: Jewish perspective on Ratzinger

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Exactly. The hard-of-thinking don't believe in giving people a chance to prove themselves either way.

Re: Current mood

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

It's a reference to my brief return to LJ before I leave it as the dead dog it is again.

Re: Current mood

[ukporl.livejournal.com]

Awwww...so, does that mean we can bait you into posting more if we write controversial and reactionary comments? :)

Re: Current mood

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Not now you've primed me, no.

Re: I'm finding it throughly amusing

[vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com]

I'm not entirely sure why folks are getting so wound up about the Hitler Youth/Nazi meanings. It's the Roman Catholic church for Christ's (hehehhehe) sake. They're almost more hated than the Orthodox Jewish community. It doesn't really matter what actually happened. The newspapers aren't exactly promoting a real understanding of Germany in the 30s in 40s. They're just running around going NAZI! NAZI! NAZI! Historical perceptions are being manipulated to shit stir. It's another example of popular media trying to undermine their credibility. (And doing a fantastic job.) I support that.

Coming back to the Bosnia argument, the Kosovars weren't always the good guys but when NATO went in they were presented as newly minted. The important thing is that the intellectually spry will disregard most of the yellow journalism and come to their own conclusions about his tenure. Those who want to know will know and those who think he's a Nazi would have thought that anyway regardless of how factually accurate The Metro is.


I'm not surprised about anything regarding the new Pope. The RC church has been fundamentally entertaining in one way or the other for more than a millenia now and so they shall stay. As someone commenting on my journal put it: now the Jews really have something to complain about. I'm looking forward to the new Holocaust conspiracy theories.

The only real issue I have with the Catholic church is the amount of pull they have regarding the condom thing. I'm not that great of a humanist to think that AIDS in Africa is the horror that Oxfam and its legions would like to believe it is but the Vatican certainly isn't helping anything. As for changing things? Not really possible in this particular style. According to this guy my ankles should be covered at all times and my typing right now is a sin. RC church = 3 legs good, two legs BAD.

*the voice of the cynic....*

Mental Note to self:

[ukporl.livejournal.com]

Must intercept thoughts before typing them and edit for sensitive information.

In that case, please ignore my previous post.

First Steps

[whotheheckami.livejournal.com]

Benedict XVI seems to be following in his mentor's footsteps with regard to faith bridge building. I noticed that the Archbishop of Canterbury will be attending the investiture/inauguration. The first Anglican Atchbishop of Canterbury to do so.

Re: I'm finding it throughly amusing

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

not that great of a humanist to think that AIDS in Africa is the horror that Oxfam and its legions would like to believe

*blinks* It's an absolute human train wreck.

Re: Salient point...

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

do they glow?

Re: Salient point...

[ukporl.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen them in the dark yet (and I'm not sure I want to), but the initial pictures the BBC news website put up were not flattering. I notice that they'e since changed them (somebody must have pointed out how scary they looked).

Re: Salient point...

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

I would like all people in positions of power to be nice to look at...very shallow I know but they will keep insisting on being on tv :p

Re: I'm finding it throughly amusing

[vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com]

AIDS and HIV are a result of a combination of tribal value systems and the un-yielding influence of the Catholic church in largely populated areas. AIDS is a result of a cultural value system that is upheld without wavering.

I find the Oxfam campaign patronizing. Ultimately it's the responsibility of the people continuing the infection and facillitating that cultural value to sort out. Oxfam portrays it like 'poor little black people, can't look after themselves, let's have the guilty white middle class who have made it so women can vote and use condoms in developed nations fix it...'

Re: Salient point...

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Have you noticed that he looks like John Golden? With hair, obviously.

Genuflect, genuflect, genuflet (appolgies to T Leary)

[ukmonty.livejournal.com]

Becoming catholic wouldn’t work, as the doctrine of Papal infallibility has been creeping back in. Vatican 2 was an attempt to allow the laity more of a say into the doctrinal interpretation and discussion of the church (along with the theological interpretation and application of scripture, dogma and cannon law. One of the more obvious applications of this viewpoint that the then Pope was advocating was the mass being in the vernacular, thus attempting to make it more accessible to the vast majority of the laity and potentially allowing them to make an informed view of the meaning. This had a fundamental effect on the underlying position of the church hierarchy as it suggested that they might be wrong and that the laity may be able to influence them. This was a first for the modern Catholic Church (i.e. posts 1700) and could be argued to show that the Catholic Church had finally got over the shock of Protestantism and its impact.

The last 30 years have seen a direct and consolidated reversal to this principle. The power of the papacy and its decision making process in all things doctrinal, theological, canonical and administrative at an Episcopal level are to a vastly greater extent than ever before in the last 200 years plus has been drawn back into the centre.

This process was started under the last Pope and if not continued will I feel been seen as a stable position for the new Pope, if not one to build on.

Anyway, just my view on the last 30 years (ish)

Re: I'm finding it throughly amusing

[ukporl.livejournal.com]

With all due respect, I'd suggest that politics and money have a great deal to do with it as well. I'd also point out that many of the victims of the virus are women who are infected by their partners and who have no idea that they're HIV+.
I'd suggest ignoring the Oxfam campaign if you find it patronising and listen to a non-religious group's take on the epidemic, who're more likely to give a less religious slant on it.

[ukporl.livejournal.com]

See how popular you are? :)
One post, having left it as a dead dog and you've had 22 comments in the space of two hours!

Its not the quantity....

[ukmonty.livejournal.com]

but the quality of the posts that matters :)

Re: I'm finding it throughly amusing

[vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com]

With all due respect, I'd suggest that politics and money have a great deal to do with it as well.

Absolutely. Prostitutes at the DeBeers supported diamond mines, unsanitary conditions and lack of money lived in by workers on cotton farms to pay off those pesky debts to the World Bank, so on, so forth. It's partially the fault of the lifestyle we all lead.

I find most AIDS in Africa campaigns patronising. Even the ones that aren't religious tend to lean towards the 'middle class saviour' slant. They completely dehumanize the people infected (just like they do in the gay and down low communities here) by absolving them of responsibility. I'd be very, very surprised to see any woman in any African nation unaware that HIV infection is a possibility. Despite our lifestyles and despite the Catholic church, it's still their responsibility to sort out, not ours.