davywavy: (boris)
davywavy ([personal profile] davywavy) wrote2005-06-26 09:22 pm

David reads Cryptonomicon

Cryptonomicon, like Fight Club, is one of these books that a lot of my chums have raved about to me and so eventually I thought I’d get around to reading it to see if it lived up to the hype. Unfortunately, like Fight Club, having read it I really can’t see what all the fuss was about. It’s a pretty solid tome, and so based upon my usual ‘by the kilo’ method of choosing reading matter a good buy. Certainly if exhaustive research, mathematic obsession, and plenty of spare time were enough to write a book, then Neal Stephenson would have written one of the great books of the last century. However he hasn’t, because writing a great book requires more than that. I’m not saying that it’s a bad book; in fact it has moments of brilliance – but it also had some catastrophic weaknesses, at least for this reader. The four primary ones I’ll list here:
1) The book relies almost on entirely on massive coincidence to advance the plot. So-and-so is a blood relative of so-and-so who knows so-and-so’s grandfather by chance and who just happened to find a over a ton of Nazi gold sitting in the jungle (like you do)…and so on. It doesn’t so much require suspension of disbelief as it requires that disbelief be trundled to the nearest gibbet and put out of its misery in order to let some of the plot-essential coincidences fly.
2) Characterisation, or lack thereof. The overriding theme of the novel is that everything, from human interactions to patterns of waves on the beach, is a vector for the transfer of information and the characters are simply active vectors of one form or another: they collect, collate, interpret, skew, obfuscate and act upon information and as a part of that process none of them require a personality. In fact, a personality would positively inhibit their ability to advance the plot.
The female characters are the least convincing. They are uniformly ciphers (pun intended) who are not only all improbably beautiful, but also they’re all wildly sexually attracted to men who are strong on mathematical ability but weak on social skills.
I don’t know about you, but my life has been remarkably short of encounters with real women like that.
3) It is a truism that nothing dates faster than the cutting edge. We now live in a world where even a fat luddite like me can not only create a web-based data system but also make money out of it, and so to have lead characters talking impressive-sounding techno-wank at each other in lengthy info dumps about doing just that – and make it sound is if they’re doing something exciting and impressive by doing so – simply dates the book as being charmingly quaint and twentieth century.
4) Inconsistency of tone. We lurch from serious digressions about the mathematical structure of crypto-analysis to astonishingly inept ‘comedic’ scenes (example: a parody of the Hebridean Islands, where all the locals speak a humourously incomprehensible dialect comprised entirely of consonants. Oh, how my sides ached).
Of course, it isn’t all weaknesses. It’s just that the weaknesses - for me anyway - are impossible to ignore. The amount of creative energy and obsessive research which has gone into the book mark it out as a remarkable achievement. However, I learned nothing about information transfer, cryptography and the history of computational development which I hadn’t already picked up from other, far more interesting and readable sources (Douglas Hofstadter is a great place to start, and even Dorothy L Sayers gives an interesting primer into codebreaking in ‘Have his Carcase’).
I’d like to like this book. Really I would. It’s impressive, well researched, intricately plotted, and jolly thick to boot. It’s just a shame that the flaws are too great to ignore and let the book wash over me.
Let’s face it, calling a major character ‘Bobby Shaftoe’ for no apparent reason other than as a crap joke (even if he does go to sea and then come back intending to marry me) is a sure-fire way of yanking the reader out of the narrative, slapping them about the chops and reminding them that it’s all just made up.
Conclusion: remarkably strong research, intricate plotting, but characterisation and dialogue of a standard so low George Lucas would blush to have written it.

[identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 08:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Get some taste man :p

1) Surely that's true of all stories? If Wimsey hadn't been friends with Parker, he'd never have heard of Harriet. If Miss Climpson hadn't been in that tea shop at the right time, she wouldn't have found the will in time. Non-coincidental meetings are unnecessary tangents in many stories,a nd it takes a *very* good writer to make them non-irritations.

2) I thought the cipher-like personalities part of the story. *Shrugs* It seemed to work for me; and face it, most wildly skilled mathematicians are fairly cipher-like in their personality.

2i) Stephenson repeats personalities / character names / archetypes in many of his books. It's odd, but nice in a "Golly, they have Tetley teabags in Outer Mongolia!" kind of reassuring way. No relevance to your point, but more comment anyway.

2ii) And you never attract "real women like that" because you aren't wildly strong on mathematical ability :p

3) What's wrong with sounding dated? So is Sayers' work; that's reminiscent of the Thirties just as this is of the turn of the century.

4) I thought the tone shifted with pov & era. It certainly didn't irritate me.

As a thought (no insult intended) - did you actually sympathise / identify with any of the characters? I know I did (as did [livejournal.com profile] vulgarcriminal), which is probably why any flaws didn't irritate me so much.

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 09:06 pm (UTC)(link)
1) True. I think what shook me out of suspension of disbelief was the size and frequency of the coincidences - I can accept person A knowing Person B; but when Person A knows Person B who is related to Person C who has a ton of gold littering up the place, and then person D (who just happens to be a relative of person A) wanders by...well, it all starts to fall to pieces for me I'm afraid.

2) I dunno - thanks to H's circle of fiends I've met some quite startlinging clever people who usually seemed to be eccentrics more than cyphers.

2ii) Didn't say I didn't atract women like that - I said I've not met many :)

3) True enough. But then again, I'll never be a dapper gentleman 'tec, no matter how hard I try :)

4) I don't know about that - the interesting Crypto and the comedy Hebrideans were both from the 1940's Waterhouse POV - and they jarred against each other for my tastes. I have to say I almost stopped reading when the comedy scots appeared.

I didn't relate to any of the characters - the men all seemed at least borderline Aspergers, and the women would have been no less convincing if they'd bee replaced by girl-shaped cardboard cutouts with tape-recorders playing their dialogue.

And what was with the gunfight in the jungle at the end? Was it a reference to one of his other books I haven't read? It seemed to come from nowhere for no reason. I was completely confused by that.

[identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 09:32 pm (UTC)(link)
1) Agan, I think it stood out for you becasue you don't like the tone of his writing. I don't see any more cincidence than, say, in Lord of the Rings - a story that grates with me becasue of its style and overuse of deus ex machina. I've personally had more OMG you know *him*? coincidences over the past six months than throughout most books. *Shrugs* It happens; probably you just don't always notice it.

2) Much as if you're rich and odd you're eccentric, and if you're poor and odd you're crazy, they're eccentrics if you like them, and one-dimensional bores if you don't.

2ii) Unless you've taken to hanging around Imperial College, the best mathematicians you know are me, your brother and Jason. *That* should say everything necessary... :p


I disagree about the male characters. Possibly because pure maths is so hard to relate to unless you have the right mind for it? Remember, I made cassette compilations using the deg / min / sec function on my calculator - that seemed perfectly *right* to me, and I was astounded that nobody else did it. Being very, very talented at something doesn't mean Asperger's (not that you need telling that). Still, I can see why it might seem so more for a mathematician than for, say, a History genius.

Regarding the female characters, I think that's just a sign of the book being written by a man, and the women being viewed from the points of view of the male characters. Women authors seem much nmore willing to write average or dull female characters; male authors aim more for the extremes of comic-book gorgeousness, or Stephen King revulsion.

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 09:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I dunno about maths & Science necessarily being hard to relate to; a lot seems to be how it's explained - I've had a lot of 'Good grief, is that how it works?' moments reading Douglas Hofstadter simply because he's good at explaining it a genuinely seems to want others to share his love. I think that Neal Stephenson was writing for an audience which he expected would relate to things on his level, and so felt no need to make certain things accessible to the lay reader.

[identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 09:52 pm (UTC)(link)
And that's just why I liked it. I like authors who assume that I know stuff, or who make me think "Good grief, I haven't read about this since university!".

I like authors who make me feel cleverer than most of the population :)

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not sure you can approve of a mathematical-themed author excluding potential readers from their work by to making it inaccessible and also complain about a lack of sexy physicists in the same breath, you know - recruits have to come fromn somewhere, and we sexy people have to be wooed into the sciences :p

[identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com 2005-06-27 03:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Exclusivity helps to make it sexy. The subject already is; it's the people involved that need improvement. Common, vulgar subjects (such as - ooh, psychology, to keep up my predictability factor) just aren't as attractive as highly specialised intellectual ones (such as physics and pure maths).

Clearly the wooing Is failing. Without commenting on your use of "we sexy people", you *didn't* get into the sciences...

Maybe offering "one free girlfriend with every split atom" would get physicists to buck up their ideas?

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-28 08:57 am (UTC)(link)
Enthusiasm and a willinginess to share that enthusiasm are sexy characteristics pretty much wherever they may be found; the great sexy physicists of the past (Let's say Feynman as the great exemplar of that) wanted everyone to be involved in the maths and sciences and made their writings as accessible as possible in order to acheive that*. Ghettoising in willfully inaccessible writing any field of experise and study is never a good way to attract people into it, and that's why the wooing is failing.
IMO, obviously.

*"If I were an electron, what would I do?"

[identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com 2005-06-28 05:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Going with the tangent, I dn't consider Feynmann to be a "sexy physicist" in my campaign definitions.

We agree that the subject can be sexy, and that the way it's put across to people can make the teacher appear sexy. But that's charisma rather than appearance (to risk dragging D&D into this and ruining all attempts to reconcile ot with attractiveness...). I want physicists (or engineers,or computer programmers, etc) who'd stop traffic or get wolf whistled on a red carpet. It's a shallow sexiness - wher you could show a photo to someone who'd never heard of $person and have them reply, "Gosh, they're all right, aren't they?".

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-29 09:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, to be fair, how many academics of any discipline (saving perhaps Sports people from Loughborough) do you know who match your criteria? With the exception of Psychologists and Studmuffins of Science, of course.
Back to my orignal review, you can hardly say that the characters in Cryptonomicon matched your criteria, can you? I mean, the 1990's Waterhouse, from his description, seemed as fat & beardy a computer geek as you would find in any of the more pungent corners of GenCon - another reason I couldn't relate to him as a character.

[identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com 2005-06-27 04:00 pm (UTC)(link)
And of course I forgot the best mathematician I know - Christi. No excuse. Except I'm not nearly as bright as her so can't be exected to be competent :)

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-28 08:52 am (UTC)(link)
H is a particularly fine mathematician, you missed her from your list - John is just good at sums.
The best mathematician I know is probably Anthony, who not only has an enourmous, pulsating brain, but is also possessed of tremendous social skills and is a peer of the realm.

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 09:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I just realised I typed 'Hilary's circle of fiends', which whilst apposite, is also inaccurate :)

[identity profile] undyingking.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 10:07 pm (UTC)(link)
My 'Grand Theory of Neal Stephenson' proposes that his writing will continue getting more tediously self-indulgent with each successive novel, until he explodes into a white-hot ball of smirk. I guess he must have some sort of unholy hold over his editor.
This is a bit disappointing, as I thought Snowcrash and The Diamond Age were well worth reading -- but since then it seems to have been one steaming heap of smuggery after another, each more irritating than the last.

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 10:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I could use this statement as the Abstract of my review...

[identity profile] undyingking.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 10:18 pm (UTC)(link)
If I can use your review as the expansion of my jibe...

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-26 10:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Deal!

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-28 11:29 am (UTC)(link)
On an unrelated tangent, would you care to chat GenCon at some point? MM are very, very worried about it and I'd like to get your opinions.

[identity profile] undyingking.livejournal.com 2005-06-28 11:47 am (UTC)(link)
Sure, I'll send a message to your Hotmail address.

[identity profile] hiromasaki.livejournal.com 2005-06-27 12:38 am (UTC)(link)
If you read the following books, the "Baroque Cycle", as it's called, you find out that those odd coincidences are actually planned. I won't go beyond that, but suffice to say that there's a specific character that is a mechanism of Deus ex Machina that very subtly makes sure coincidences are rather less so.

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-27 09:50 am (UTC)(link)
But, after reading this one, the important question is..."Can I be bothered?"

[identity profile] ukmonty.livejournal.com 2005-06-27 10:01 am (UTC)(link)
actually you probably can, for two reasons,
1. the cycle is a pretty good rollicking read
2. I will lend them to you so its FREE!

[identity profile] hiromasaki.livejournal.com 2005-06-27 01:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, now that's a better deal than I have...

I was loaned the hardcover of Cryptonomicon just long enough to get hooked. The hardcover wasn't available at any of the local shops by the time I went to get it, and my softcover is on loan in Seattle.

I will most likely get the first book of the cycle shortly, but I'll have to buy those. (Yes, I haven't actually read them, but I had a nudge to "pay attention to _______," and wondered how anyone would think I could've missed that.)

[identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com 2005-06-27 04:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Mmmm, steampunk and Newton :) Sexy physicists everywhere - what more could one ask?

except maybe Richard Hammond and David Tennant, an hotel room, 12 hours and a vat of condensed milk

(Anonymous) 2005-06-27 06:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I'll up the ante: read them both and there's fifty quid in it for you. It's worth the cash just to see you suffer.

(Anonymous) 2005-06-29 04:30 pm (UTC)(link)
No.

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-29 09:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Thrity five each then.

(Anonymous) 2005-07-01 02:41 pm (UTC)(link)
twenty seven fifty. Final offer.

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-07-01 02:43 pm (UTC)(link)
You tightwad! Does my suffering mean nothing to you?

(Anonymous) 2005-07-03 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes: It gives me my 'special' feeling.

Suffer more, yeah.

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-28 08:46 am (UTC)(link)
It may be free, but my exposure to Neal Stephenson has not been a happy one, so can I be arsed to invest the time and effort into reading more of his stuff?
(deleted comment)

[identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com 2005-06-28 12:11 pm (UTC)(link)
That was rather the impression I got with Cryptonomicon - the asperger-candidate characters spend hundreds of pages techno-wanking each other in great detail, and then there's a sudden firefight and the book just...stops.
Profoundly disappointing, especially as I thought he was leading up to something.

[identity profile] silanah.livejournal.com 2005-07-08 10:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I possibly shouldn't have read this entry because I've just started reading the book, but from the first couple hundred pages I do agree that there are weaknesses you listed are present. Happily I'm reading it for the cryptography and the random tangents into the world of maths. However I accept the stunted characters because, for the most, part they are all highly technical and boarderline Aspergers/Autistic - now, maybe that's one conincidence to far for me. We'll see how I feel by the end of the book.
N

ps will be friending you because the post above made me bust a gut laughing.