"Gender Roles."

Sep. 9th, 2005 12:01 pm
davywavy: (Default)
[personal profile] davywavy
Some of you may have read this story on recently reported comments by veteran BBC newsreader Michael Buerk regarding the gender division and his opinion that the ‘traditional male virtues’ of reticence, stoicism and single-mindedness are being sidelined by modern society. These comments were greeted by sections of my female friends list with outcry, stamping of feet, and a departure to buy shoes and chocolate.*
I'd be interested to hear what any of you think of this***, but it seems to me that there are several factors at work here, not all of which can be blamed on the political issue of "gender roles”.

In pursuing my chain of reasoning I’ve made a large assumption, which is this:
The people who are good at skills traditionally seen as ‘hard’ sciences, as a section of population, are in the main less good at relating to other people than the population as a whole.
That’s a big assumption, and I know there are a lot of exceptions – but as a rule, it may well be true.
Now, the pro-'men are cleverer than women' lobby tend to use the undeniable fact that scientific geniuses throughout history have tended to be male (Curie and Byron aside, off the top of my head), and that men, per head of population, produce more first class university degrees than women. True enough, but what is also usually conveniently glossed over is that men, per head of population, also produce more third class degrees than women – not to mention that the male population also produces more examples of what kids in the schoolground call ‘scopers’. That is, the mentally subnormal.
Why might this be? You can argue socialisation, but I’m not so sure – whilst a hundred years or more ago you can understand a lack of education amongst women keeping nascent geniuses amongst them back, I’m not so sure how true that is today, especially within our society.

But what of what Michael Buerk said of ‘traditional male virtues’? Life experience has taught me that you most certainly do not have to be male to be reticent or stoic any more than one has to be female to be a foot-stamping prima-donna. Surf livejournal on the random button for a half hour and you’ll find that the incidence of non-stoic whining seems to be pretty evenly spread throughout the population, so my opinion is that Michael Buerk has got wrong what the ‘male strengths’ are. Instead, looking at history, it strikes me more that those ‘male strengths’ more of an ability to quickly deal with complex data at an abstract level according to set rules; that is science, maths, even things like military strategy. The mindset that allows this also results, in accordance with the assumption above, in difficulties relating to others – or, to put it another way, appearing reticent and stoical.
Why should this be? Well, my idea is that it comes back to our old pal, the ‘Y’ chromosome.
The XY chromosome pairing is nature’s playground. In the XX pairing, mutations, recessive characteristics and sports on one chromosome are less likely to be expressed due to the tempering effect of the other. In the XY, these mutations and recessions are less tempered and restrained meaning that extremes are more likely to be expressed. These extremes can manifest as genius, but they’re also just as likely to manifest as drooling imbecility or complete bonkersness. It doesn’t take many men expressing a successful genetic tic to maintain a population (for example, if 150 people have me listed as a friend, then it’s statistically likely that a couple of them are descended from Genghis Khan), so evolution can afford to muck about with the XY pairing to see if it throws up anything interesting much more than it can the XX.

If men are more likely to express extremes, then if we draw bell curves of the male and female populations in any field we are likely to see that that female bell curve is steeper than the male with the male one expressing more extremes at each end.

You might have gathered by this point that I’m not grounded in genetic theory and I’m making this up as I go along. Bear with me.

What this means is that men are more likely to fall outside the ‘normal’ curve of the population. By falling outside the ‘normal’ curve, then the experiences and world views of other people are more likely to be incomprehensible to them; this, I think, has two effects.
1) They are drawn to rules-based systems as these systems make sense in a way which much of the world does not.
2) They become reticent and stoic.

If this is the case, then why are ‘male skills’ becoming obsolete?
That’s one is easy – we’ve out-invented them. I’ve got a calculator which can multiply two seven digit primes in seconds. I’ve got a stock-tracker programme which picks share movement patterns. I’ve got a chess programme which can out-play 99.9% of the population. Rome:Total War can trash professional military tacticians. Technology has rendered obsolete a large swathe of the rules-based data manipulations which used to be the male preserve.
What is even more interesting in this is that the ‘hard’ sciences, of which so much of the work can now be done at the touch of a button, were the easy things to replicate digitally. Rules + Data = programming challenge. Many of the great expressions of human genius, of calculation and data use, can be done on a PC. You might need a Newton to invent calculus, but you no longer need an army of semi-autistic clerks scribbling over ledgers to do the legwork with it, rendering those clerks obsolete – or at least turning them into C++ programmers.
What has proven difficult to replicate through programming are the ‘traditionally female’ ‘soft’ skills. As a result of being more likely to fall within the ‘normal’ population curve, I theorise that women are more likely to be able to relate their own experiences and viewpoints to others; to be able to ‘map’ themselves onto others, to use computer jargon.
This mapping has proven impossible to achieve in a meaningful way through attempts to replicate human cognitive processes on a computer. Sums? Dead easy. Empathy? No chance.

I find it oddly interesting to conclude that the traditional ‘male skills’ of stoicism, reticence, and difficult sums can be so easily replicated by a lump of silicon the size of a pinhead whilst the traditionally female skills which are usually derided are comprised of such flexible rules and intuition that they’ve thus far proven impossible to programme.
When Michael Buerk said that men are becoming more like women he’s probably right but that’s because, by staying like men, they’ve been out-evolved by the pocket calculator.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts.


*I’m joking here, ladies. Please don’t harm me too badly. I like my internal organs where they are.**

**Surrounded by the thick layer of blubber at the moment. Curses.

***A first, I know.

Date: 2005-09-09 11:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sesquipedality.livejournal.com
I think you're also assuming that Michael Buerk is right in saying that male skills are now obsolete. The vast majority of those in 'positions of power' (whatever they might be) are still male. I have certainly felt marginalised in academia and the workplace by what I've perceived as dominantly male cultural patterns. (Although it's hard for me to judge how objectively this is the case.)

If your genetics is correct, one would expect to see a greater variance in IQ of women with XY chromosomes and Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome over the female population as a whole. I wonder if anyone has researched that.

Can I postulate an alternative theory that men on average have more energy than women, and are thus more capable of sustaining the kind of driven lifestyle that leads to 'genius'? Or that the popular conception of genius is biased towards those kind of skills which men tend to excell at.

Date: 2005-09-09 11:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
'Genius' is a hard term to define, but historically boys seem to have it more than girls, and wherever genius is expressed it seems to be predicted on two things: firstly, absolute obsessiveness to a subject, and secondly, an ability to make leaps of non-obvious intuition to a conclusion which is correct.
These leaps, I think, are probably subconscious intuitive use of rules of data manipulation.

There's a great story about Feynman - someone once asked him how he came up with Quantum Electrodynamics and he replied "Well, I thought - if I was an electron, what would I do?"
Feynman seems to have been an exception to the poor socialisation rule, though, as does Einstein.

Date: 2005-09-09 11:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sesquipedality.livejournal.com
And yet "intuition" is more traditionally considered a female trait. Possibly that's another misconception then.

Date: 2005-09-09 11:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
Intuition in the sense of understanding other people is the 'feminine', intuition in the sense of making mathematical/scientific leaps in the Kekule sense is traditionally 'male'. I must be more specific.

Date: 2005-09-09 11:36 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
They'd have less energy if they sometimes did the washing up, David.

H

Date: 2005-09-09 02:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-mendicant.livejournal.com
Oh well said!

Date: 2005-09-09 11:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] souldier-blue.livejournal.com
For someone not grounded in genetic theory you seem to have picked up quite a lot of the current thinking. OK, I'm no expert either, but I do tend to read about that kind of thing. Interestingly, more miscarriages are of male foetuses than female. The male is an aberration (genetically speaking, as all embryos start off female) so yeah, it is more likely that they'll fall outside the curve of the "normal" population. The suicide rate is far higher for men than women as well.

Date: 2005-09-09 11:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
The male is an aberration

So all those 50's movies about mutants conquering the Earth and making free with women seem to have been based in fact!

Actually, I wouldn't call the male an aberration per se; the existence of a Y chromosome in 49% or more of the population (which leads pretty much inevitably to maleness) can't really be described as a simple aberration. I'd be more inclined to say that half the population are more given to variation from the median point.
I'm not surprised by the suicide rate. The day an electronic device which can replace me is invented, I'll top myself too.

Oh. Shit.

Date: 2005-09-09 12:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] souldier-blue.livejournal.com
Genetically speaking the y chromosome is an aberration, in that all foetusus start of xx and some of them become xy, and sometimes things get more confused and you end up with xyy

Date: 2005-09-09 12:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
Are you sure? From what I remember of my 15-year old A level biology, you start with an XX and an XY and through cellular division you end up with either a XX or an XY; not an XX that might become an XY.
I thought that all fetuses started developing the same way until the flood of testosterone caued by the 'Y' caused male sexual development, but that the Y was there right from the get-go of fertilisation.

Am I wrong?

Date: 2005-09-09 12:49 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I'm going to have to go look it up now!

Date: 2005-09-09 01:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ditzy-pole.livejournal.com
There was an examination of a range of human patients with chromosonal abnormalities and it has shown that a Y chromosome present helped developed male gonads.

I think you start of as having either XX or XY. It is known for certain, however, that until 6 weeks of development there is no distinction between male or female. The Y chromosome needs to at that point issue an instruction to make the testis. The Y chromosome itself is small. Most of its DNA is heterochromatic therefore all that is necessary to make a male cannot be located on the Y chromosome alone. Some genes lie on other autosomal chromosomes as well as even on the X at times. The Y chromosome contains what is called the 'switching' or 'controller' gene (SRY), which regulates the expression of all the other structural genes by deciding whether and when they should be activated.

As this gene is activated testosterone, produced by the Leydig cells, maintins the Wolffian ducts, and after reduction by 5 alpha reductase, virilises the urogenital sinus and external genitalia.

It is possible through chromosomal deletions/mutations for the XY not to develop a male.

Date: 2005-09-09 01:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
That's almost word for word what I was thinking.

Date: 2005-09-09 01:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ditzy-pole.livejournal.com
Thought I'd make it clearer...

Date: 2005-09-09 01:42 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Genetically speaking the y chromosome is an aberration, in that all foetusus start of xx and some of them become xy, and sometimes things get more confused and you end up with xyy

We're genetically male or female from conception, but anatomically all of us are fundamentally female. Male characteristics only arise as a result of response to androgens, male sex hormones.

Socialization

Date: 2005-09-09 11:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com
I would argue that the final point regarding certain 'male' attributes being seen as obsolete is now part of the socialization process.

Also, secondly, it's now far more socially acceptable to be detached from past social self checks. I'd say the decline in religious instruction would have a massive impact on later behavior. Schools are also an integral part of adaptation and can be youth war zones without the discipline.

Re: Socialization

Date: 2005-09-09 11:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
Fair point; gender roles are no longer being reinforced by social religoius standards, meaning that they are changing.
This leads to other extremes - such as detonating on busses - which women are less likely to do than men as well.

Re: Socialization

Date: 2005-09-09 11:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com
Hmmm. For now. I think there will be more women bombers in the future. Cases of girl's arrests for violent crime keep rising. The incidents of peers being taken in punished and released will more than likely count towards a significant change in the definition of 'normal' behavior.

Date: 2005-09-09 11:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sea-of-flame.livejournal.com
*grins*

The 'male' skills you've identified are probably easier to program *because* they follow inflexible rules...but that is due to the nature of the computers that are used - because they were designed to *be* calculating machines. Why were calculating machines designed? Because those tasks were deemed vital enough to bother to invest time, money and intellect in finding a machine to do it - largely (because of the social wotsit of the time), by men. By that argument, man's intellect has surpassed itself ;)

It might be suggested that successful replication of 'female' skills may well involve going completely back to the drawing board, rather than trying to strong-arm computers into a type of task they weren't designed for.

So, why would a woman want to create something that would learn to mimic her, in time surpassing & supporting her by reducing her workload? (And, indeed, to be truly versatile, the model should potentially be capable of learning 'male' skills as well)

It could be said that that design work has been going on successfully for a long time - the intelligence created just wasn't artificial ;)


Date: 2005-09-09 11:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
So, why would a woman want to create something that would learn to mimic her

Well, bearing in mind that most of the work done to create computer systems haas been done by men with extremes of personality, I'm not sure a woman could</i. create somethign to replace her if any opf the above is true ;p

Date: 2005-09-09 12:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zenmeisterin.livejournal.com
I'm going to excuse msyelf from this one - never had had a chance with empathy anyway and preferring instead to tactically outfox RTS games.

All hail Feynman!
(deleted comment)

Date: 2005-09-09 01:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
The Corpus callosum, that structure which links the two halves of the brain together, tends ot be smaller in the male brain than the female; a definite genetic difference in brain structure between the sexes.
Interestingly, homosexual men have a statistically larger corpus callosom than the male population as a whole, and homosexual females have a statistically smaller corpus callosum than the female population as a whole; thus making a mockery of religious fundamentalist claims that there's no 'natural' difference between homo- and hetero- sexual people at a genetic level.

Date: 2005-09-09 01:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com
thus making a mockery of religious fundamentalist claims that there's no 'natural' difference between homo- and hetero- sexual people at a genetic level.

I'd love to see someone mock another someone with that.

Date: 2005-09-09 01:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com
I mean like protesters with big signs that say 'No difference? PAH! The Corpus Callosum is different!'

Or some such.

That's why we need real life mocking.

Date: 2005-09-09 04:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twicedead.livejournal.com
Is that not possibly that the ol' Corpus gets bigger with a bit of a work-out?

Date: 2005-09-09 04:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
How would that happen?

Date: 2005-09-09 04:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twicedead.livejournal.com
ben= no genetic background and some limited biology

Brain structure is heavily associated with brain chemistry. The brain can change the structure based on what's going on in it, this comes from low level rerouting to some parts getting smaller when not used (this is my understanding and may be completely wrong).

My dr of Psychology buddy tells me that psychology can alter brain chemistry.

So if thought can alter chemsitry and chemistry can alter structure, then perhaps being more social/being in a different social role might lead to a different brain structure.

The problem here is the only way you can tell if it's socialisation or genetics is by inspecting the brains of pre-socialisation babies, and how the hell do you tell if a male baby is gay?

Date: 2005-09-09 07:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
Doesn't work like that - the Corpur Callosum is a bundle of nerve fibres and, no matter how much you use them, nerves don't get bigger or fatter like muscles - although they can atrophy from lack of use like any other tissue.

I think. It's been 15 years since I studied this stuff.

Date: 2005-09-09 12:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
Other stuff (quickly, cos I'm in a hurry):

- men are encouraged to be more extreme in all areas of behaviour;
- testosterone encourages competitiveness and the "crush your enemies" thinking, while women are brought up to help others;
- if I want empathy, I want it from a person, not a machine. Other traditionally female roles *have* been duplicated by technology.

The one that bugs me most is that men seem to make themselves feel better by rubbishing others (e.g. car salesmen "selling" to me; engineering departments tellingme that I'm not brightenough). It works asfar as advancing themselves beyond those rubbished can be said to be "working", but actively works against the "feminine" side if the interactions.

I don't think "genius" is tied to energy; just that it's still seen as "ok" in many families for boys to play with their toys and take things apart & break them & make a mess, while girls are encouraged to be quiet & artistic & help around the home.

Date: 2005-09-09 01:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
How much of that is has a genetic composition, though? Are boys who pushed it in the past are more likely to reproduce meaning that mucking about about and so on have become survival traits at a genetic level, whilst girls who pushed back are more likely to have been whacked out by said boys in the dim & distant past?

Date: 2005-09-09 01:05 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
what a load of bollocks discussion - this whole discussion is utter bollocks you thick probably dim art student bastard

Date: 2005-09-09 01:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
I'm curious as to where I've gone wrong in my reasoning then. Presumably, as you work in Mass Spectroscopy, you've deal with things at the molecular level and can point out my flaws?

Always willing to learn.

Date: 2005-09-09 02:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-mendicant.livejournal.com
Yay! No good post is complete without some mindless abuse (probably by a man....)

Date: 2005-09-09 01:15 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
John, if you still want to crash out at the flat tonight, please try to be a bit more polite to your brother.

H

Date: 2005-09-09 01:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
It's not john - it's someone who works here.
A scientist of some sort, presumably, although you wouldn't know it from their spelling.

Date: 2005-09-09 01:25 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Oh, right, drat, sorry John, my text-sampling techniques fall flat once again.

Mass spectrometers aren't clever, David, we modified one to dissociate H3+ when I was writing my thesis, and even I could understand what was going on. In fact I made a computer model of it. In Fortran.

H

Date: 2005-09-09 01:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sesquipedality.livejournal.com
Frankly I'm not suprised you're being anonymous. I'd be embarrased too if I couldn't form coherent sentences, or remember how to use a full stop.

Date: 2005-09-09 02:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-mendicant.livejournal.com
A few thoughts, in no particular order (female prerogative):

1. I think vibrators, powered screwdrivers and gadgets for getting the lids off jars have done more to make traditional male roles obsolete than calculators et al.

2. Yes, there are a preponderance of male 'boffins' and therefor one might assume that men have the upper edge in the thinking gene pool, however, Asperger Syndrome affects 70% males to 30% females and one of the main aspects of said syndrome is to allow the individual to concentrate to the exclusion of all external stimuli, in a narrow field of interest. Concomitant with this is the poor social interaction (stoical traits?) that many AS people have.

3. Michael Buerk cites the number of females in key roles within the BBC, as an example of societal shift - just think of all those years when Bunny Whatsherface ran Blue Peter - possibly subconsciously influencing all those nice middle class people who tend to run things now!

4. I tend to agree that many men of our generation appear to have lost their way, but actually see that happening across both genders - and especially in today's 20 somethings. So many of them don't seem to know how to get on with getting a job much less having a career. In the post-feminist world we live in, anything goes and because popular role models such as Beckham appear to be rather androgynous, no one appears to know how to act any more.

We should all be classed according to our ability, not our gender, in any given situation, however, I happen to like my men to be 'manly' and revel in my own femininity. My more rabid sisters my choose to shoot me at this point, but what's wrong with having a man who is stronger than you and in whose arms you feel safe? In return I'll provide emotional support and make him feel empowered once more.

Date: 2005-09-09 02:52 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Well, alpha males rock, obviously.
The problem is, they are noticeably outnumbered by males with less really stellar mutations, trying to cob some of the vicarious glory of the geniuses by virtue of having been born with a Y chromosome too. Like being born in Lincolnshire & thinking that makes you Isaac Newton.

H

Date: 2005-09-09 02:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
I happen to like my men to be 'manly'

Two words: Gingham Dress.

Date: 2005-09-09 04:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] robinbloke.livejournal.com
I have no idea what you could possibly mean.

Ahem.

Date: 2005-09-10 07:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-mendicant.livejournal.com
Well said dress has never been out in MY presence, and I can assure you, He's all Man ;P

hehehehe

Date: 2005-09-09 03:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] applez.livejournal.com
Rome:Total War can trash professional military tacticians. Technology has rendered obsolete a large swathe of the rules-based data manipulations which used to be the male preserve.

So, Osama Bin Laden is the last male hurrah? ;-)

...or is it that the Americans don't want to find him because together they can have the last game men can play at. :-p

Re: hehehehe

Date: 2005-09-09 04:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] davywavy.livejournal.com
I wouldn't regard Bin Laden as a competant tactician - in his life he's only put together one decent plan; in the main he's always just been the bankroller for more able men. Certainly Colin Powell is a far better tactician, and the US could have avoided a lot of problems by following the Powell Doctrine.

Re: hehehehe

Date: 2005-09-09 05:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] applez.livejournal.com
Just thinking of Bin Laden as a representative of a relatively low-technological contra-rules movement. Which, incidentally, folded nicely into Taleban anti-feminism, but that's something running parallel to my point.

Come to think of it, you probably understood that, so I don't know why I bothered, oh well. :-)
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