Some of you may have read this story on recently reported comments by veteran BBC newsreader Michael Buerk regarding the gender division and his opinion that the ‘traditional male virtues’ of reticence, stoicism and single-mindedness are being sidelined by modern society. These comments were greeted by sections of my female friends list with outcry, stamping of feet, and a departure to buy shoes and chocolate.*
I'd be interested to hear what any of you think of this***, but it seems to me that there are several factors at work here, not all of which can be blamed on the political issue of "gender roles”.
In pursuing my chain of reasoning I’ve made a large assumption, which is this:
The people who are good at skills traditionally seen as ‘hard’ sciences, as a section of population, are in the main less good at relating to other people than the population as a whole.
That’s a big assumption, and I know there are a lot of exceptions – but as a rule, it may well be true.
Now, the pro-'men are cleverer than women' lobby tend to use the undeniable fact that scientific geniuses throughout history have tended to be male (Curie and Byron aside, off the top of my head), and that men, per head of population, produce more first class university degrees than women. True enough, but what is also usually conveniently glossed over is that men, per head of population, also produce more third class degrees than women – not to mention that the male population also produces more examples of what kids in the schoolground call ‘scopers’. That is, the mentally subnormal.
Why might this be? You can argue socialisation, but I’m not so sure – whilst a hundred years or more ago you can understand a lack of education amongst women keeping nascent geniuses amongst them back, I’m not so sure how true that is today, especially within our society.
But what of what Michael Buerk said of ‘traditional male virtues’? Life experience has taught me that you most certainly do not have to be male to be reticent or stoic any more than one has to be female to be a foot-stamping prima-donna. Surf livejournal on the random button for a half hour and you’ll find that the incidence of non-stoic whining seems to be pretty evenly spread throughout the population, so my opinion is that Michael Buerk has got wrong what the ‘male strengths’ are. Instead, looking at history, it strikes me more that those ‘male strengths’ more of an ability to quickly deal with complex data at an abstract level according to set rules; that is science, maths, even things like military strategy. The mindset that allows this also results, in accordance with the assumption above, in difficulties relating to others – or, to put it another way, appearing reticent and stoical.
Why should this be? Well, my idea is that it comes back to our old pal, the ‘Y’ chromosome.
The XY chromosome pairing is nature’s playground. In the XX pairing, mutations, recessive characteristics and sports on one chromosome are less likely to be expressed due to the tempering effect of the other. In the XY, these mutations and recessions are less tempered and restrained meaning that extremes are more likely to be expressed. These extremes can manifest as genius, but they’re also just as likely to manifest as drooling imbecility or complete bonkersness. It doesn’t take many men expressing a successful genetic tic to maintain a population (for example, if 150 people have me listed as a friend, then it’s statistically likely that a couple of them are descended from Genghis Khan), so evolution can afford to muck about with the XY pairing to see if it throws up anything interesting much more than it can the XX.
If men are more likely to express extremes, then if we draw bell curves of the male and female populations in any field we are likely to see that that female bell curve is steeper than the male with the male one expressing more extremes at each end.
You might have gathered by this point that I’m not grounded in genetic theory and I’m making this up as I go along. Bear with me.
What this means is that men are more likely to fall outside the ‘normal’ curve of the population. By falling outside the ‘normal’ curve, then the experiences and world views of other people are more likely to be incomprehensible to them; this, I think, has two effects.
1) They are drawn to rules-based systems as these systems make sense in a way which much of the world does not.
2) They become reticent and stoic.
If this is the case, then why are ‘male skills’ becoming obsolete?
That’s one is easy – we’ve out-invented them. I’ve got a calculator which can multiply two seven digit primes in seconds. I’ve got a stock-tracker programme which picks share movement patterns. I’ve got a chess programme which can out-play 99.9% of the population. Rome:Total War can trash professional military tacticians. Technology has rendered obsolete a large swathe of the rules-based data manipulations which used to be the male preserve.
What is even more interesting in this is that the ‘hard’ sciences, of which so much of the work can now be done at the touch of a button, were the easy things to replicate digitally. Rules + Data = programming challenge. Many of the great expressions of human genius, of calculation and data use, can be done on a PC. You might need a Newton to invent calculus, but you no longer need an army of semi-autistic clerks scribbling over ledgers to do the legwork with it, rendering those clerks obsolete – or at least turning them into C++ programmers.
What has proven difficult to replicate through programming are the ‘traditionally female’ ‘soft’ skills. As a result of being more likely to fall within the ‘normal’ population curve, I theorise that women are more likely to be able to relate their own experiences and viewpoints to others; to be able to ‘map’ themselves onto others, to use computer jargon.
This mapping has proven impossible to achieve in a meaningful way through attempts to replicate human cognitive processes on a computer. Sums? Dead easy. Empathy? No chance.
I find it oddly interesting to conclude that the traditional ‘male skills’ of stoicism, reticence, and difficult sums can be so easily replicated by a lump of silicon the size of a pinhead whilst the traditionally female skills which are usually derided are comprised of such flexible rules and intuition that they’ve thus far proven impossible to programme.
When Michael Buerk said that men are becoming more like women he’s probably right but that’s because, by staying like men, they’ve been out-evolved by the pocket calculator.
I'd be interested to know your thoughts.
*I’m joking here, ladies. Please don’t harm me too badly. I like my internal organs where they are.**
**Surrounded by the thick layer of blubber at the moment. Curses.
***A first, I know.
I'd be interested to hear what any of you think of this***, but it seems to me that there are several factors at work here, not all of which can be blamed on the political issue of "gender roles”.
In pursuing my chain of reasoning I’ve made a large assumption, which is this:
The people who are good at skills traditionally seen as ‘hard’ sciences, as a section of population, are in the main less good at relating to other people than the population as a whole.
That’s a big assumption, and I know there are a lot of exceptions – but as a rule, it may well be true.
Now, the pro-'men are cleverer than women' lobby tend to use the undeniable fact that scientific geniuses throughout history have tended to be male (Curie and Byron aside, off the top of my head), and that men, per head of population, produce more first class university degrees than women. True enough, but what is also usually conveniently glossed over is that men, per head of population, also produce more third class degrees than women – not to mention that the male population also produces more examples of what kids in the schoolground call ‘scopers’. That is, the mentally subnormal.
Why might this be? You can argue socialisation, but I’m not so sure – whilst a hundred years or more ago you can understand a lack of education amongst women keeping nascent geniuses amongst them back, I’m not so sure how true that is today, especially within our society.
But what of what Michael Buerk said of ‘traditional male virtues’? Life experience has taught me that you most certainly do not have to be male to be reticent or stoic any more than one has to be female to be a foot-stamping prima-donna. Surf livejournal on the random button for a half hour and you’ll find that the incidence of non-stoic whining seems to be pretty evenly spread throughout the population, so my opinion is that Michael Buerk has got wrong what the ‘male strengths’ are. Instead, looking at history, it strikes me more that those ‘male strengths’ more of an ability to quickly deal with complex data at an abstract level according to set rules; that is science, maths, even things like military strategy. The mindset that allows this also results, in accordance with the assumption above, in difficulties relating to others – or, to put it another way, appearing reticent and stoical.
Why should this be? Well, my idea is that it comes back to our old pal, the ‘Y’ chromosome.
The XY chromosome pairing is nature’s playground. In the XX pairing, mutations, recessive characteristics and sports on one chromosome are less likely to be expressed due to the tempering effect of the other. In the XY, these mutations and recessions are less tempered and restrained meaning that extremes are more likely to be expressed. These extremes can manifest as genius, but they’re also just as likely to manifest as drooling imbecility or complete bonkersness. It doesn’t take many men expressing a successful genetic tic to maintain a population (for example, if 150 people have me listed as a friend, then it’s statistically likely that a couple of them are descended from Genghis Khan), so evolution can afford to muck about with the XY pairing to see if it throws up anything interesting much more than it can the XX.
If men are more likely to express extremes, then if we draw bell curves of the male and female populations in any field we are likely to see that that female bell curve is steeper than the male with the male one expressing more extremes at each end.
You might have gathered by this point that I’m not grounded in genetic theory and I’m making this up as I go along. Bear with me.
What this means is that men are more likely to fall outside the ‘normal’ curve of the population. By falling outside the ‘normal’ curve, then the experiences and world views of other people are more likely to be incomprehensible to them; this, I think, has two effects.
1) They are drawn to rules-based systems as these systems make sense in a way which much of the world does not.
2) They become reticent and stoic.
If this is the case, then why are ‘male skills’ becoming obsolete?
That’s one is easy – we’ve out-invented them. I’ve got a calculator which can multiply two seven digit primes in seconds. I’ve got a stock-tracker programme which picks share movement patterns. I’ve got a chess programme which can out-play 99.9% of the population. Rome:Total War can trash professional military tacticians. Technology has rendered obsolete a large swathe of the rules-based data manipulations which used to be the male preserve.
What is even more interesting in this is that the ‘hard’ sciences, of which so much of the work can now be done at the touch of a button, were the easy things to replicate digitally. Rules + Data = programming challenge. Many of the great expressions of human genius, of calculation and data use, can be done on a PC. You might need a Newton to invent calculus, but you no longer need an army of semi-autistic clerks scribbling over ledgers to do the legwork with it, rendering those clerks obsolete – or at least turning them into C++ programmers.
What has proven difficult to replicate through programming are the ‘traditionally female’ ‘soft’ skills. As a result of being more likely to fall within the ‘normal’ population curve, I theorise that women are more likely to be able to relate their own experiences and viewpoints to others; to be able to ‘map’ themselves onto others, to use computer jargon.
This mapping has proven impossible to achieve in a meaningful way through attempts to replicate human cognitive processes on a computer. Sums? Dead easy. Empathy? No chance.
I find it oddly interesting to conclude that the traditional ‘male skills’ of stoicism, reticence, and difficult sums can be so easily replicated by a lump of silicon the size of a pinhead whilst the traditionally female skills which are usually derided are comprised of such flexible rules and intuition that they’ve thus far proven impossible to programme.
When Michael Buerk said that men are becoming more like women he’s probably right but that’s because, by staying like men, they’ve been out-evolved by the pocket calculator.
I'd be interested to know your thoughts.
*I’m joking here, ladies. Please don’t harm me too badly. I like my internal organs where they are.**
**Surrounded by the thick layer of blubber at the moment. Curses.
***A first, I know.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 11:24 am (UTC)If your genetics is correct, one would expect to see a greater variance in IQ of women with XY chromosomes and Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome over the female population as a whole. I wonder if anyone has researched that.
Can I postulate an alternative theory that men on average have more energy than women, and are thus more capable of sustaining the kind of driven lifestyle that leads to 'genius'? Or that the popular conception of genius is biased towards those kind of skills which men tend to excell at.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 11:35 am (UTC)These leaps, I think, are probably subconscious intuitive use of rules of data manipulation.
There's a great story about Feynman - someone once asked him how he came up with Quantum Electrodynamics and he replied "Well, I thought - if I was an electron, what would I do?"
Feynman seems to have been an exception to the poor socialisation rule, though, as does Einstein.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 11:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 11:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 11:36 am (UTC)H
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 02:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 11:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 11:29 am (UTC)So all those 50's movies about mutants conquering the Earth and making free with women seem to have been based in fact!
Actually, I wouldn't call the male an aberration per se; the existence of a Y chromosome in 49% or more of the population (which leads pretty much inevitably to maleness) can't really be described as a simple aberration. I'd be more inclined to say that half the population are more given to variation from the median point.
I'm not surprised by the suicide rate. The day an electronic device which can replace me is invented, I'll top myself too.
Oh. Shit.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 12:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 12:38 pm (UTC)I thought that all fetuses started developing the same way until the flood of testosterone caued by the 'Y' caused male sexual development, but that the Y was there right from the get-go of fertilisation.
Am I wrong?
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 12:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:17 pm (UTC)I think you start of as having either XX or XY. It is known for certain, however, that until 6 weeks of development there is no distinction between male or female. The Y chromosome needs to at that point issue an instruction to make the testis. The Y chromosome itself is small. Most of its DNA is heterochromatic therefore all that is necessary to make a male cannot be located on the Y chromosome alone. Some genes lie on other autosomal chromosomes as well as even on the X at times. The Y chromosome contains what is called the 'switching' or 'controller' gene (SRY), which regulates the expression of all the other structural genes by deciding whether and when they should be activated.
As this gene is activated testosterone, produced by the Leydig cells, maintins the Wolffian ducts, and after reduction by 5 alpha reductase, virilises the urogenital sinus and external genitalia.
It is possible through chromosomal deletions/mutations for the XY not to develop a male.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:42 pm (UTC)We're genetically male or female from conception, but anatomically all of us are fundamentally female. Male characteristics only arise as a result of response to androgens, male sex hormones.
Socialization
Date: 2005-09-09 11:29 am (UTC)Also, secondly, it's now far more socially acceptable to be detached from past social self checks. I'd say the decline in religious instruction would have a massive impact on later behavior. Schools are also an integral part of adaptation and can be youth war zones without the discipline.
Re: Socialization
Date: 2005-09-09 11:31 am (UTC)This leads to other extremes - such as detonating on busses - which women are less likely to do than men as well.
Re: Socialization
Date: 2005-09-09 11:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 11:37 am (UTC)The 'male' skills you've identified are probably easier to program *because* they follow inflexible rules...but that is due to the nature of the computers that are used - because they were designed to *be* calculating machines. Why were calculating machines designed? Because those tasks were deemed vital enough to bother to invest time, money and intellect in finding a machine to do it - largely (because of the social wotsit of the time), by men. By that argument, man's intellect has surpassed itself ;)
It might be suggested that successful replication of 'female' skills may well involve going completely back to the drawing board, rather than trying to strong-arm computers into a type of task they weren't designed for.
So, why would a woman want to create something that would learn to mimic her, in time surpassing & supporting her by reducing her workload? (And, indeed, to be truly versatile, the model should potentially be capable of learning 'male' skills as well)
It could be said that that design work has been going on successfully for a long time - the intelligence created just wasn't artificial ;)
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 11:51 am (UTC)Well, bearing in mind that most of the work done to create computer systems haas been done by men with extremes of personality, I'm not sure a woman could</i. create somethign to replace her if any opf the above is true ;p
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 12:00 pm (UTC)All hail Feynman!
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:04 pm (UTC)Interestingly, homosexual men have a statistically larger corpus callosom than the male population as a whole, and homosexual females have a statistically smaller corpus callosum than the female population as a whole; thus making a mockery of religious fundamentalist claims that there's no 'natural' difference between homo- and hetero- sexual people at a genetic level.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:27 pm (UTC)I'd love to see someone mock another someone with that.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:32 pm (UTC)Or some such.
That's why we need real life mocking.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 04:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 04:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 04:55 pm (UTC)Brain structure is heavily associated with brain chemistry. The brain can change the structure based on what's going on in it, this comes from low level rerouting to some parts getting smaller when not used (this is my understanding and may be completely wrong).
My dr of Psychology buddy tells me that psychology can alter brain chemistry.
So if thought can alter chemsitry and chemistry can alter structure, then perhaps being more social/being in a different social role might lead to a different brain structure.
The problem here is the only way you can tell if it's socialisation or genetics is by inspecting the brains of pre-socialisation babies, and how the hell do you tell if a male baby is gay?
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 07:05 pm (UTC)I think. It's been 15 years since I studied this stuff.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 12:37 pm (UTC)- men are encouraged to be more extreme in all areas of behaviour;
- testosterone encourages competitiveness and the "crush your enemies" thinking, while women are brought up to help others;
- if I want empathy, I want it from a person, not a machine. Other traditionally female roles *have* been duplicated by technology.
The one that bugs me most is that men seem to make themselves feel better by rubbishing others (e.g. car salesmen "selling" to me; engineering departments tellingme that I'm not brightenough). It works asfar as advancing themselves beyond those rubbished can be said to be "working", but actively works against the "feminine" side if the interactions.
I don't think "genius" is tied to energy; just that it's still seen as "ok" in many families for boys to play with their toys and take things apart & break them & make a mess, while girls are encouraged to be quiet & artistic & help around the home.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:11 pm (UTC)Always willing to learn.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 02:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:15 pm (UTC)H
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:17 pm (UTC)A scientist of some sort, presumably, although you wouldn't know it from their spelling.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:25 pm (UTC)Mass spectrometers aren't clever, David, we modified one to dissociate H3+ when I was writing my thesis, and even I could understand what was going on. In fact I made a computer model of it. In Fortran.
H
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 01:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 02:31 pm (UTC)1. I think vibrators, powered screwdrivers and gadgets for getting the lids off jars have done more to make traditional male roles obsolete than calculators et al.
2. Yes, there are a preponderance of male 'boffins' and therefor one might assume that men have the upper edge in the thinking gene pool, however, Asperger Syndrome affects 70% males to 30% females and one of the main aspects of said syndrome is to allow the individual to concentrate to the exclusion of all external stimuli, in a narrow field of interest. Concomitant with this is the poor social interaction (stoical traits?) that many AS people have.
3. Michael Buerk cites the number of females in key roles within the BBC, as an example of societal shift - just think of all those years when Bunny Whatsherface ran Blue Peter - possibly subconsciously influencing all those nice middle class people who tend to run things now!
4. I tend to agree that many men of our generation appear to have lost their way, but actually see that happening across both genders - and especially in today's 20 somethings. So many of them don't seem to know how to get on with getting a job much less having a career. In the post-feminist world we live in, anything goes and because popular role models such as Beckham appear to be rather androgynous, no one appears to know how to act any more.
We should all be classed according to our ability, not our gender, in any given situation, however, I happen to like my men to be 'manly' and revel in my own femininity. My more rabid sisters my choose to shoot me at this point, but what's wrong with having a man who is stronger than you and in whose arms you feel safe? In return I'll provide emotional support and make him feel empowered once more.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 02:52 pm (UTC)The problem is, they are noticeably outnumbered by males with less really stellar mutations, trying to cob some of the vicarious glory of the geniuses by virtue of having been born with a Y chromosome too. Like being born in Lincolnshire & thinking that makes you Isaac Newton.
H
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 02:57 pm (UTC)Two words: Gingham Dress.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-09 04:04 pm (UTC)Ahem.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-10 07:46 am (UTC)hehehehe
So, Osama Bin Laden is the last male hurrah? ;-)
...or is it that the Americans don't want to find him because together they can have the last game men can play at. :-p
Re: hehehehe
Date: 2005-09-09 04:29 pm (UTC)Re: hehehehe
Date: 2005-09-09 05:43 pm (UTC)Come to think of it, you probably understood that, so I don't know why I bothered, oh well. :-)