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[davywavy]

Amongst the comments to my earlier post, several people have raised questions about the definitions of poverty and their validity; especially that covered by Oxfam, which defines poverty as less than 60 of the national median disposable income.

According to the national office of statistics, after rent, bills and necessities are paid, this figure is £194 per week per household. If you're living on less than that, Oxfam says you're living in poverty; they don't appear to differentiate between households of people living alone and households with a dozen squalling children crammed into the front room because, as we all know, there's no difference in living costs between the two.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

That's us, David! We're officially poor! Right-ho, here goes

Dear David's readers,

This year, let's all help to "Make Poverty History."
Armbands whose sale will go to a fairer redistribution of the world's wealth can be obtained from this Livejournal, price £10 each. [note to David, I'll run these up from old yoghurt cartons if you deal with the distribution side, we'll split the proceeds*] And you too can do your bit towards eradicating hardship in the UK!

Thank you for your support.

The Wade Towers "Make Poverty History" Campaign

*80:20 to me

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Can we afford yoghurt cartons, Fagin?

[(Anonymous)]

Don't you worry, Dodger, some people actually throw them away with the recycling. You can go out and get them back.

Fagin

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Frow them away? But there's good eating on an empty yoghurt carton!
For them as is rich enough to afford them, that is.

[robinbloke.livejournal.com]

Someone needs themselves an LJ...

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Wow, I'm about 150 quid over the poverty line (calculated monthly) and my rent is relatively cheap. I need to show this to my employer...

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

It is quite likely that Oxfam may have a silly method for overall defining poverty, but it in no ways reduces the importance of the work they do.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

This was my basic point; by using such a ridiculous and unrealistic standard, they undermine their credibility and remove focus from actual problems which need dealing with.

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

That's true. It undermines them in the eyes of... who exactly?

Anyone smart enough to spend time calculating their statistics is smart enouh to realise that any mathematical measurement of poverty is meaningless in face of the complexity of the issue of poverty, and that some statistics should not be poked.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

So we shouldn't poke a statistic saying "one person in four" when it's just not true?
I believe in truth in advertising myself.

And it's not the people who are smart enough to do the maths I'm worried about; it's the ones who aren't, and who are instead emotionally blackmailed into supporting something based upon false premises.

[pjc50.livejournal.com]

Why? We can measure the distance to the moon, but poverty is something we cannot and should not understand?

What strikes me as odd about the UK poverty debate is that the vast majority of people raising it as a problem are not themselves poor.

[borusa.livejournal.com]

How is "Disposable Income" defined?

[(Anonymous)]

That would be whatever's left after one has paid out for the weekly essentials of life, such as Orangettes, single malt, Emma Peel DVD's and suchlike.

H

[borusa.livejournal.com]

That would be whatever's left after one has paid out for the weekly essentials of life, such as Orangettes, single malt, Emma Peel DVD's and suchlike.

And you fail basic economics, with an additional failure in elementary web page reading, subcategorised as "the small writing at the bottom".

Disposable income is gross income minus taxes, NI contributions and pensions contributions, plus interest from savings, plus or minus some other, comparatively insignificant and uncommon things.

It _does not_ include rent/mortgage, utilities, food, clothing or transport.

I quote (from the page davywavy linked to :-


The income data in the distribution of income chart are adjusted to 2002/03 prices using the Retail Prices Index less local taxes and are before the deduction of housing costs.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

"The amount of personal income an individual has after taxes and government fees, which can be spent on necessities, or non-essentials, or be saved."

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

In case you're wondering, I still qualify - us company directors get minimum wage, you know.

[borusa.livejournal.com]

It really does fall apart when applied to company directors and entrepeneurs, especially ones in the early stages of a company - for obvious reasons - your "earnings" are in large part (hopefully) the increasing value of your company. Measuring that is difficult (until you get bought for vast summs of money, and retire to Xanadave). However, there aren't that many people in the same position (since they made it difficult for contractors to dodge round taxes by the same method).

As twicedead says, using statistics to measure poverty is very difficult. Unfortunately, I'm not convinced there's another way. Obviously, you can argue over what is the right statistic until your eyes pop out.

[the-maenad.livejournal.com]

One recalls a quote from George Orwell's "The Road to Wigan Pier". George asked some oppressed miner when the area he lived in had become so poverty-stricken, and the miner replied "When we were told about it" -- meaning that until people like Orwell started coming to town and poking about, the miners had all simply assumed that their poverty was the natural order of things rather than a state they could aspire to escape from.

[pjc50.livejournal.com]

Road to Wigan Pier is absolutely fantastic. It's interesting what has and hasn't changed since then.

[the-maenad.livejournal.com]

I always smile at his lumping vegetarians and fruit-juice drinkers in with rabid left-wingers. Funny to think that in those days, a carton of nasty cheap Tesco's Basic Orange Juice (From Concentrate) was probably worth a week's wages.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

I'm reminded of my brother during the miners strike of the 1980's Having grown up in a mining community in South Yorkshire, we had something of a first hand view of events and one day he travelled to Canturbury for an interview at the University there.
As he got off the train he was accosted by students collecting for "The starving miners in Yorkshire"
He replied "I've just come from Yorkshire, and they're not starving. They're all fat."

[(Anonymous)]

It was Sussex, but well remembered.

[mrmmarc.livejournal.com]

Yeah- and being at school in the same place and same time as well...

I remember a load of my mates whose fathers were striking miners getting VAST amounts of Xmas pressies. i mean shit loads that year.
SO much bloody cash collected for the starving children of the striking miners... my best mate got a fookin' ten speed racer!!!

Best bloody pressie he'd ever 'ad!
Twat!

And that ponce Springsteen was writin' bloody huge cheques for 'em!

Wasn't bloody fair!
My dad were lecturer!
And he were workin'...

..and I didn't get no fuckin' ten-speed racer that Crimbo!

[gwaunquest.livejournal.com]

There is a phrase (which I coined myself) that I apply to all situations such as this.
The truth is like a mirror - what you see depends on where you stand.

[souldier-blue.livejournal.com]

OK, bit lost... my other half doesn't even earn £194 a week.