[Politics]"Not for the true-born Englishman the bony, angular knee of the so-called intellectual"

[davywavy]

I was having a conversation about politics the other day. You might have noticed that I do this quite a lot, largely because it's a safe outlet for frustrations which otherwise might manifest themselves in the acquisition of a rifle and a clock tower. As political chats seem to do quite a lot at the moment, this one came back to the BNP. Mainly because they're a bunch of fat oafs and are an easy target.
I'm not one for indulging in the rabid hatred that some direct towards the BNP myself; I'm always leery of people who hate anything with a passion, as I feel that implies they see something of themselves in the thing they are rejecting - in the same way that the most rabid homophobes tend to be closeted homosexuals themselves. I'd rather see the BNP given an open, free speaking forum as public debate - and loud, loud laughter - are the most effective weapons against the small minded. Anyway, on with the point of this post.

"Bloody right-wingers", complained my pal.
"Right wing? The BNP?" I said. "Where did you get that from?"
"Well, they are, aren't they?"
Now, as I'm quite a fan of political debate and the like I've actually read the BNP manifesto - I find it's easier to argue with people when I understand their position - and I have to say that I found saying the BNP were right wing confusing, to say the least.
"Hang on", I said. "I've read the BNP's manifesto, and they're in favour of high taxes on the rich, protectionism, workers co-operatives, a large state, regulation, unionisation and nationalising major industries, utilities and, wierdly, the RNLI. None of those thngs strike me as very...right wing?"
"Ah", was the reply. "It's their immigration policy which makes them right wing."
"Ooooh-kay", I said, taking this in. "So they're right wing. How about me, then? I'm in favour of low taxes, privatisation, deregulation, a small state, free enterprise, free trade and it's essential adjunct of open borders. Does that make me left wing?"
"No. You're right wing."
"Okay, I'm lost. On the one hand regulation, nationalisation, high taxes, protectionism and immigration controls make them right wing, but on the other hand deregulation, free enterprise, low taxes, free trade and open borders make me...right wing. You'll understand my confusion."
"I don't want to have this conversation any more."

I have to say this was a disappointing end to things, as I ended up none the wiser on how two people who hold mutually contradictory political opinions could be described as the same thing. I went off and checked the normally impartial Political compass which, as I suspected, described the BNP as authoritarian lefties (the position of the LibDems as semi-anarchists would also explain why I find myself increasingly considering them as an option):


But anyway; given that the evidence would certainly suggest that the BNP are to the left of Michael Foot, why do people insist on describing them as right wing? And what do you think?

[Poll #1417983]

Comments

[sea-of-flame.livejournal.com]

given that the evidence would certainly suggest that the BNP are to the left of Michael Foot, why do people insist on describing them as right wing?

Because people tend to equate fascism with right-wing'ism'.

That's not to say that there isn't an intersection between the two viewpoints - but as your graph demonstrates, they're actually two different facets/axes - and therefore being one doesn't automatically infer also being the other.

Of course, were I you, I could doubtless make some pun about axes of evil at this point... Bonus points for any links to Mr crocodilewings's post of a couple of days ago about the sad lack of use of the Venn diagram.

Nationalise the RNLI??!!??

[(Anonymous)]

... followed in rapid succession by appoinment of shop stewards, the formation of the lifeboatmen's union UniLife, and thereafter by a series of "Let 'em Drown" days of action, targeted to coincide with forecasts of extra stormy weather, so as to bring lifeboatmen's annual wages settlements into line with other workers in equivalent emergency-related service industries ...

Where do they get these ideas???

H

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Left and right wing have, in the last quarter century or so, come to be largely economic terms whilst authoritarian/ liberty tend to be the other axes. I'm not sure how true this is; the more the state takes control of an economy the less individual freedom the people have (the right to protest, for example, is worthless if you're so highly taxed you can't afford to get to London). I think the centralisation of any power be it social or economic tends to lead to authoritarianism which is why I'm against it. Power to the people - and by that I mean actual power. Not having it vested in the hands of representatives, committees, delegates or soviets.

Re: Nationalise the RNLI??!!??

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm rather confused by that one as well; brother, who is a governor of the RNLI, has taken rather strongly against the BNP at the suggestion that Griffin plans to be his new people's overlord.

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

If neo-liberalism were the only measure of being right wing, wouldn't that make any traditional form of conservatism fairly left wing?

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but a hundred years ago, I would have been a Whig.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

The subtext to my post is that people tend to describe things they dislike or disagree with as being the 'other'; The BNP are rascists, therefore they cannot hold any left wing opinions. I'm kinda of the the opinion that all political and economic positions not only contain with them the seeds of their own destruction, but also the seeds of extremism and I think that the fact that people are so quick to dismiss anything they disagree with as having no place on their part of the political spectrum is extremely dangerous, to say the least. Complacency and a sense of the moral superiority of one's little place in the world (and, by implication, the moral inferiority of others) is how organisations like the BNP get started in the first place.

I don't know if you've ever come across a 70's series called 'Love thy neighbour'; it's worth looking up as a historical document if not. It features a factory-working trade union organiser being appalled when a black family move in next door because "They're stealing our jobs".

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

I thought you still were?

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

I am - it's just the terms have changed :)

[calligrafiti.livejournal.com]

Right wing = racist conservatives is true for a non-trivial portion of the US political spectrum, but attempting to make US politics map to anyone, anywhere else is ridiculous and, in the case of US people doing the mapping, intellectually lazy. So it happens a lot over here in the states.

Thanks for the summary of BNP politics. I hadn't really looked into them, beyond noticing that the whole economic meltdown and MP expense scandal seemed to be giving them a hand. Pity. I'm wary of authoritarianism on any side of the left-right axis.

Re: Nationalise the RNLI??!!??

[(Anonymous)]

Indeed I have. The RNLI is a great example of how well the people can organise themselves without state interference. (The Swedish lifeboat institute only became independent of the RNLI last year, and we still run the Irish - a splendid example of cross border co-operation which is manifestly missing in the shockingly inept EU) Of course control freaks hate it.

I reckon the RNLI model could be well applied to education - what do you think?

Bearing in mind Hayek's comment on the incompatibility of open borders and a welfare state (as pretty well proven by the current 'administration') are you advocating 'privatising' welfare?

[(Anonymous)]

I tend to follow Trevor Phillips argument that racism is a symptom of tensions caused by disfunctional society. The two solutions would be:

Either points based immigration cotrols (to work with the welfare state)

or scrap the welfare state & let those without work auto-deport.

Open borders & generous welfare don't seem to be easy bedfellows.

Re: Nationalise the RNLI??!!??

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Healthcare: It depends; healthcare for subjects of Her Majesty? No problem at all. Foreign nationals and taxpayers in other regions should cough for it in this country; it'd certainly make sense. Perhaps we could require a reciprocal healthcare agreement with foreign states - we'd bill the Romanian govt for healthcare given to their nationals in this country and vice versa.
Overall, this is linked to greater reform of NI - my first move would be to remove the administration of NI revenues from state control. If we're going to have a national insurance system, it should be used for, you know, insurance.

Education; The three best education systems in Europe are Sweden, norway and Belgium. two of those are voucher systems, which would indicate that that system has a lot to recommend it. Of course, the Swedes don't bother formally testing their students before they're 16, either, which I suspect makes them less stressed and happier - as opposed to ours, who must jump through weekly hoops to satisfy the Blairite nannystate.

Re: Nationalise the RNLI??!!??

[(Anonymous)]

Well, theoretically you can educate your kids at home, and presumably join with other parents to set up a small independent school although at that point an army of welfare officials would, I suspect, descend, to make sure you weren't a ring of paedophiles, and this is enough to put most people off. Also you still have to pay for the approved state product.

The equivalent with the RNLI would be if every lifeboat had to be approved by Health and Safety, every time, before it went out, people who'd been traumatised by rescuers could sue, and, as a taxpayer, you still had to cough up every time "UniLife" called out a lifeboatmen's strike in support of the state competition.

H

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

No, they don't work together, as welfare in one state is always going to be more generous than working in another and so you'll get migration. It's human nature, and you can't blame them (I'd do the same) but it's also unworkable.

Re: Nationalise the RNLI??!!??

[(Anonymous)]

... oh, and you'd have monthly targets to meet.

H

Re: Nationalise the RNLI??!!??

[(Anonymous)]

Is this UniLife crap for real, or did you just make it up?

Re: Nationalise the RNLI??!!??

[(Anonymous)]

According to Google, the phrase "lifeboatman's union" returns no results.

So I must have made it up. Phew!

H

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's odd - American racists tend to want foreigners out and free trade (presumably only with white folks), whilst british racists tend to want foreigners out, and then to close our borders and refuse to buy other people's stuff.

I had an argument once with someone claiming it wasn't patriotic to buy stuff made in other countries. I disagreed. I think it's unpatriotic to make overpriced crap and then expect me to buy it just because it was made in this country.

[medusa-nw.livejournal.com]

I find 'bunch of boneheaded fascist' covers it nicely.

[emma7783.livejournal.com]

My thoughts exactly.

Except I'm pretty wary of any authoritarianisim. The people that tend to want power are those I'd rather didn't have it!

[emma7783.livejournal.com]

Curse my inabillity to read!

[(Anonymous)]

Kinda like having a 42" TV really compels a fellow to keep his windows shut?

Odd how our politicians are so out of touch they didn't twig that one - it's almost as if they didn't have to pay for their own TVs.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

I think the mistake that federalists make is to look at the US and see the success that their model shows. However, the value of the dollar is consistent across the US whereas the value of the Euro is not consistent across members of the European union, and so fracturing of the economy and economic migration is inevitable.

The trouble with Nick Griffin

[(Anonymous)]

... is that, just because he has succeeded in inducing a handful of half-wits to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, he thinks he's someone. He hears them shouting "Heil, Griffin!" and he imagines it is the Voice of the People. That is where he makes his bloomer. What the Voice of the People is saying is: "Look at that frightful ass Griffin swanking about in footer bags! Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?"

H