[Politics]"Not for the true-born Englishman the bony, angular knee of the so-called intellectual"

[davywavy]

I was having a conversation about politics the other day. You might have noticed that I do this quite a lot, largely because it's a safe outlet for frustrations which otherwise might manifest themselves in the acquisition of a rifle and a clock tower. As political chats seem to do quite a lot at the moment, this one came back to the BNP. Mainly because they're a bunch of fat oafs and are an easy target.
I'm not one for indulging in the rabid hatred that some direct towards the BNP myself; I'm always leery of people who hate anything with a passion, as I feel that implies they see something of themselves in the thing they are rejecting - in the same way that the most rabid homophobes tend to be closeted homosexuals themselves. I'd rather see the BNP given an open, free speaking forum as public debate - and loud, loud laughter - are the most effective weapons against the small minded. Anyway, on with the point of this post.

"Bloody right-wingers", complained my pal.
"Right wing? The BNP?" I said. "Where did you get that from?"
"Well, they are, aren't they?"
Now, as I'm quite a fan of political debate and the like I've actually read the BNP manifesto - I find it's easier to argue with people when I understand their position - and I have to say that I found saying the BNP were right wing confusing, to say the least.
"Hang on", I said. "I've read the BNP's manifesto, and they're in favour of high taxes on the rich, protectionism, workers co-operatives, a large state, regulation, unionisation and nationalising major industries, utilities and, wierdly, the RNLI. None of those thngs strike me as very...right wing?"
"Ah", was the reply. "It's their immigration policy which makes them right wing."
"Ooooh-kay", I said, taking this in. "So they're right wing. How about me, then? I'm in favour of low taxes, privatisation, deregulation, a small state, free enterprise, free trade and it's essential adjunct of open borders. Does that make me left wing?"
"No. You're right wing."
"Okay, I'm lost. On the one hand regulation, nationalisation, high taxes, protectionism and immigration controls make them right wing, but on the other hand deregulation, free enterprise, low taxes, free trade and open borders make me...right wing. You'll understand my confusion."
"I don't want to have this conversation any more."

I have to say this was a disappointing end to things, as I ended up none the wiser on how two people who hold mutually contradictory political opinions could be described as the same thing. I went off and checked the normally impartial Political compass which, as I suspected, described the BNP as authoritarian lefties (the position of the LibDems as semi-anarchists would also explain why I find myself increasingly considering them as an option):


But anyway; given that the evidence would certainly suggest that the BNP are to the left of Michael Foot, why do people insist on describing them as right wing? And what do you think?

[Poll #1417983]

Comments

[sea-of-flame.livejournal.com]

given that the evidence would certainly suggest that the BNP are to the left of Michael Foot, why do people insist on describing them as right wing?

Because people tend to equate fascism with right-wing'ism'.

That's not to say that there isn't an intersection between the two viewpoints - but as your graph demonstrates, they're actually two different facets/axes - and therefore being one doesn't automatically infer also being the other.

Of course, were I you, I could doubtless make some pun about axes of evil at this point... Bonus points for any links to Mr crocodilewings's post of a couple of days ago about the sad lack of use of the Venn diagram.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Left and right wing have, in the last quarter century or so, come to be largely economic terms whilst authoritarian/ liberty tend to be the other axes. I'm not sure how true this is; the more the state takes control of an economy the less individual freedom the people have (the right to protest, for example, is worthless if you're so highly taxed you can't afford to get to London). I think the centralisation of any power be it social or economic tends to lead to authoritarianism which is why I'm against it. Power to the people - and by that I mean actual power. Not having it vested in the hands of representatives, committees, delegates or soviets.

Nationalise the RNLI??!!??

[(Anonymous)]

... followed in rapid succession by appoinment of shop stewards, the formation of the lifeboatmen's union UniLife, and thereafter by a series of "Let 'em Drown" days of action, targeted to coincide with forecasts of extra stormy weather, so as to bring lifeboatmen's annual wages settlements into line with other workers in equivalent emergency-related service industries ...

Where do they get these ideas???

H

Re: Nationalise the RNLI??!!??

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm rather confused by that one as well; brother, who is a governor of the RNLI, has taken rather strongly against the BNP at the suggestion that Griffin plans to be his new people's overlord.

[hareb-sarap.livejournal.com]

If neo-liberalism were the only measure of being right wing, wouldn't that make any traditional form of conservatism fairly left wing?

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but a hundred years ago, I would have been a Whig.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

The subtext to my post is that people tend to describe things they dislike or disagree with as being the 'other'; The BNP are rascists, therefore they cannot hold any left wing opinions. I'm kinda of the the opinion that all political and economic positions not only contain with them the seeds of their own destruction, but also the seeds of extremism and I think that the fact that people are so quick to dismiss anything they disagree with as having no place on their part of the political spectrum is extremely dangerous, to say the least. Complacency and a sense of the moral superiority of one's little place in the world (and, by implication, the moral inferiority of others) is how organisations like the BNP get started in the first place.

I don't know if you've ever come across a 70's series called 'Love thy neighbour'; it's worth looking up as a historical document if not. It features a factory-working trade union organiser being appalled when a black family move in next door because "They're stealing our jobs".

[calligrafiti.livejournal.com]

Right wing = racist conservatives is true for a non-trivial portion of the US political spectrum, but attempting to make US politics map to anyone, anywhere else is ridiculous and, in the case of US people doing the mapping, intellectually lazy. So it happens a lot over here in the states.

Thanks for the summary of BNP politics. I hadn't really looked into them, beyond noticing that the whole economic meltdown and MP expense scandal seemed to be giving them a hand. Pity. I'm wary of authoritarianism on any side of the left-right axis.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's odd - American racists tend to want foreigners out and free trade (presumably only with white folks), whilst british racists tend to want foreigners out, and then to close our borders and refuse to buy other people's stuff.

I had an argument once with someone claiming it wasn't patriotic to buy stuff made in other countries. I disagreed. I think it's unpatriotic to make overpriced crap and then expect me to buy it just because it was made in this country.

[emma7783.livejournal.com]

My thoughts exactly.

Except I'm pretty wary of any authoritarianisim. The people that tend to want power are those I'd rather didn't have it!

[medusa-nw.livejournal.com]

I find 'bunch of boneheaded fascist' covers it nicely.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

My feeling is that people are repulsed by their policies and so naturally assume they're part of what psychologists call the 'other'; obviously, no left-wing person could think like that so they must be teh ev1l t0riezz! Omg.

The trouble with Nick Griffin

[(Anonymous)]

... is that, just because he has succeeded in inducing a handful of half-wits to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, he thinks he's someone. He hears them shouting "Heil, Griffin!" and he imagines it is the Voice of the People. That is where he makes his bloomer. What the Voice of the People is saying is: "Look at that frightful ass Griffin swanking about in footer bags! Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?"

H

Re: The trouble with Nick Griffin

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Re: The trouble with Nick Griffin

[zenicurean.livejournal.com]

Nick Griffin wishes he ran the Black Shorts.

[vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com]

Honestly? Social prejudice. It seems to be relatively common for the working and guilt ridden middle classes to believe Right = Bad, Left = Good. So the BNP, being the rampant racists they are, are classed as Left.

[vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com]

Right rather, slip of the tongue!

[mrmmarc.livejournal.com]

Facism is to right wing politics as fish are to Newtonian physics.

The self same people who equate racism with right wing views and get all upset and 'I HATE racists' are usually the same who equate the problems with the Taliban/Al-Quida with Islam.
Or who say that the problems with Ulster are caused by religious reasons.

Stupid is as stupid does.

At least the BNP are honest in their drool craven nimrodness.
With many 'intellectuals' you have to suffer the intellectual vanity.

*sighs*
Mind you I know why there IS a link made.
it is nothing to do with left or right wingism...

It's to do with being stupid.
There are, on average the same number of morons on both extremes of the political divide.
RIGHT WING morons are easier to spot cos they talk about big easy issues to talk about.
And we all go 'gosh look at those retards' and assume everyone on the right is thick and THEN see the BNP and go 'Ewwww, how frightful, and they are JUST LIKE those horrible people who are on the right wing and are stupid... therefore they MUST be right wing."

We tend to overlook the sheer number of fucktards on the left who are so momumentally thick forced sterilisation would be a blessing you knows?

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

forced sterilisation would be a blessing you knows?

I believe that was the rationale the Swedish Government actually gave for sterilising about 2% of their population as unfit to breed, you know.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grimtales_/]

There does remain an ideological difference. Racism is inherently elitist and 'social darwinist' and this is in line with right wing thinking. Socialist, leftist thought is centred on the idea of egalitarianism, equal rights and against priviledge and elites. So there is a yawning gulf there ideologically. Racism DOES fit with right wing philosophy. It doesn't equate to it, but that is there it fits in.

Similarly to deny the involvement of religion in the Al-Queda and NI situations is remarkably short sighted. Even if you want to claim its not a direct cause it's clearly an 'accelerant' and makes such conflicts easier to excuse in the minds of those who want to fight.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grimtales_/]

On the surface many of their policies seem leftist but their version of 'nationalisation' is more like corporatism. When they talk about taking control of businesses etc the idea is nationalism and protectionism, not liberating them for the people or placing service industries on a service footing rather than a profit footing.

It is an important distinction, IMO.

You're right in that left/right distinctions have largely become economic rather than social these days though.

[(Anonymous)]

Once again, I agree, but how to place industry in the hands of the people?

All jobs feature doing something unpleasant, and if I was the boss, I wouldn't be doing them. If I was also the customer, I'd be annoyed the supplier (also me) was a lazy sod and wouldn't go the extra mile to keep me happy..

How to maintian dynamic tension between customer & supplier, so that both strive to excel?

[glummdead.livejournal.com]

I'd suggest that the majority of people would put the BNP on the far right because that is where the puts them (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jun/20/gtc-bnp-teachers-schools-education)

[glummdead.livejournal.com]

meant to write "mainstream news organisations" there...