You know what? I thought we'd got past this five years ago.

[davywavy]

I don't know if you noticed, but the UK has recently had a visit from a figure who is, to say the least, quite controverial. Some people consider him to be an ethical and moral authority, but the vast majority look at pretty much everything he's said in the last half-decade with a sinking feeling of dismay at a smug, self-righteous poseur getting the oxygen of publicity.

That's right, I hear Michael Moore was in London for a few days.

But you know what I'm playing at here - the old bait and switch of expectation around the Pope visiting the UK and the somewhat predictable resultant online furure. I actually find it quite depresssing the number of people who I know and consider friends who've gone from being normally intelligent and reasonable folks to, well, not being that over the whole thing. We've even had the old 'pope was a member of the Hitler Youth' line dragged out ad infinitum again, and I swear that the next time someone spouts that old line of crap at me I'm going to go ape bonkers and punch their teeth out through their bottom.
The thing I hate about accusations of and comparisons with Hitler and the Nazis is that it is just incresidibly intellectually lazy shorthand; I'd've hoped that Rik Mayall in the Young ones thirty years ago had shown that up as the vacuous line of argument which it is. What it is basically saying is "I disagree with you but lack the will or ability to formulate an argument, so I'm just going to call you the worst thing I can think of." It's just tiresome. Stop it. I’m very disappointed in everyone who has done so. I thought you were more intelligent than that. All of you.

What's even more tooth-grindingly embarrassing was the open letter from the usual suspects like Richard Dawkins and Stephen Fry in which they "reject the masquerading of the Holy See as a State", pretty much because they don't like orthodox catholicism's views on condoms and homosexuality. Now, I didn't know that one could get away with unilaterally ceasing to recognise states which have things like UN ambassadors and a standing army just because one doesn't like their policies, but if you can then I don't recognise Zimbabwe because Robert Mugabe is a bit of a meanie and, um, hang on... Sweden - yes, Sweden - because, oh, I don't know. Because it's full of pinkoes.
There. That's just as good an argument as any.

There's plenty to disagree with Catholicism about and this sort of posturing does the opposing argument no good whatsoever. Indeed, I'd say that having Richard Dawkins in your corner in any argument about metaphysics makes you look a bit of a twat to the vast majority of 'plague on both your houses' people who just want to get on with their lives.

What's worse is that, reading LJ and FB, a great many people seem to feel that they are in some way morally superior to the Pope. Now with my record, for me to claim moral superiority over pretty much anyone is comedy and I think that’s true of most of the people I know as well. I know what a lot of you have done, you see.
To those who disagree with the Popes moral stance, my suggestion is this: if you feel your personal philosophy can bring greater spiritual peace, succour, and comfort to the poor and dispossessed of the world, then get out there and act, and I don't mean posting it to FB for a bunch of similarly minded people to agree with you like so many nodding dogs.
Who knows? If your philosophy is indeed superior, in two thousand years they may well be electing your spiritiual successor.

Anyway, rant over. It's back to jokes on Monday and I've got some good ones lined up for next week including - maybe - my first ever full musical.

Comments

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

Actually, what I mainly object to about this visit is the huge quantity of taxpayers' money (yes, MY money) being wasted on it. So he's the head of a cult, and some people want to wave flags at him. So? Let them (and him) pay for it, then. And don't even THINK about closing the roads to people who're trying to do something productive, like get to work (or the shops, or the pub) just because this irrelevance wants to play at posing.

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but so is the Queen and other countries pay for her to visit them...

[davedevil.livejournal.com]

Good God----

--- I ACTUALLY agree with you ----

I feel quite faint...

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

See? Hope for you yet.

[rssefuirosu.livejournal.com]

The previous pope - a much, much better pope incidentally - did not have the state funding his visit in 82. Given the state of the Vatican's finances compared to ours, and the incredible waning of support for the catholic church, this being a state visit cannot be justified. And, in my own way, yes I am going out and providing philosophical succour.

So I shall continue to find the Tim Minchin song hilarious, and repost it as I please.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

JP2 was a much better pope. I was quite a fan of his.
However, a state visit can be justified. I mean, the Yankee and the Chinese are rather better off than us, but I don't see us asking Ju Hintau to foot the bill when he graces us with his presence.

Like it or not, he's a head of state. Not wanting him to be doesn't change that.

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

Jedi Church: Is it OK for Jedis to have same sex marriages?

[raggedhalo.livejournal.com]

Correcting Ben Goldacre on Twitter yesterday on the Hitler Youth thing was really quite disappointing. It was compulsory to join!

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

That even Goldacre mentioned it really set me off. I actually sent him an email (with parts of what I just posted today) and he replied not really apologising but at least conceding my point. He tried to argue that it wasn't his main point in the article but I think an off-handed remark makes it even worse.

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

*nods nods nods*

And it ties into a general British thing for throwing WW2 at the German people whenever we want to feel smug.

Yes, there was an unpleasant regieme in Germany, many many years ago. That doesn't mean that no German who was born before 1945 has no right to express a moral view ever.

[zenmeisterin.livejournal.com]

Well to be honest I've ignored the whole thing. I don't like it and the transport disruption is going to make going to the theatre with my mother tonight a nightmare, but he's not really any more or less hypocritical and full of crap than any other Leader the state spends lavish amounts on bringing over and entertaining. If anything, the comments he's made are a source of amusement.

Do Not Want, but then why should I demand that what I want should take precedent?

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

If you'll just indulge my pedantry for a bit, I'd like to propose a more refined sequence of events.

The Pope, in his speech, likened secularism to Nazism, and lots of people online went "well he'd know, what with being in the Hitler Youth and all". Now, I don't think either positions are particularly scintilating, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think the latter one had a tiny bit of a point hiding somewhere in it.

When Nobby McAOLchops (East Kent) is encouraged to liken someone to the Nazis by the Have Your Say team, he's doing it because he's an uneducated moron who's been given a largely anonymous platform. The most influential decision he's ever going to have to make in life probably involves something like distribution of confectionary packaging in the East Anglia region. To a certain extent, Nobby can say what he likes about Nazis, and it will get as much interest and attention as his opinions on water polo, cunnilingus or ninjas. Namely none.

The Pope has neither that luxury or excuse. He's a well-educated man. He was alive and present in Germany over the course of the Second World War. There's also that annoying and confounding issue of over a billion people (allegedly) believing that everything he says is the word of God. When he likens something to Nazism, he means business.

In that light, it's actually pretty reasonable to criticise his invocation of Godwin's Law a bit more harshly than Nobby's. Several orders of magnitude, maybe.

[sherbetsaucers.livejournal.com]

There's also that annoying and confounding issue of over a billion people (allegedly) believing that everything he says is the word of God.

No, they don't, or if they do it's because they have no idea about Catholic dogma. A pope is only infallible when moved to speak by the holy spirit. Even Catholics don't believe that happens when he decides to have coco puffs in the morning. It only happens when he makes a specific decree on a matter of faith or specific teaching and makes a universal deceleration on it.

Last time that happened was 1950.

Secondly, I'd argue (but not for more than the time it takes to type this paragraph) he isn't subject to Godwins law because, unlike most of the people it's mocking, he KNOWS how bad the Nazis were.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

I must have missed it first time round but I only just noticed the bit about a billion people believing everything he says...word of God, etc. I'm not even a Catholic, and I know that the pope in two thousand years has spoken infallibly twice, and both times it was to settle debates on minor points of theology which are pretty much meaningless to anyone but another Catholic.

I'm hoping you were joking?

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

Can you just go through all public expenditure and let us know what is and isn't pointless crap, please?

Or, so we don't have to bother you, can you just tell us this objective measure of what constitutes "pointless crap" which you seem to be using?

[twicedead.livejournal.com]

To be frank, a lot of those spends look useless until you actually get in and look at what they really mean. Market research often means understanding your local community and how to best communicate with them, especially how to communicate about important health, political and other issues with hard to reach groups who do not normally interact with the main community channels. Staff inequality training is about training people how to deal with the vast range of social and health inequality issues that exist within a community and how best to support their diverse people - it's not just a case of being nice to everyone - staff members probably don't understand how some people want to be treated and have to be educated as to their needs.

It's easy enough to say "inequlity training" is a useless spend, or "bloody hell you're spending 40k on plants" but you have to understand what those things actually mean and what impact they really have - not some cheap headline.

[danfossydan.livejournal.com]

I not that suprisingly largely agree with your post.

I do feel that the pope is wonderfully larger than life. I think its astounding that figures such as him have this public persona that travel from City to city. I'm quite amazed by how many public engagments are being cramed into such a short space of time by this particualar "old timer".

Other such greats, are quite a short list. I think QE is possibly equally astounding. US presidents just don't have the same level of being head of such a massive orginiastion for their whole life, and being such a part of history. (they come close mind, but then also have more direct accountability and power than the Queen or Pope).

I think its strange, because these are very unique people in positions that I actually don't envy, but I think that do provide a very important focus for humanity. I think the focus that this visit brings with it on to a wide range of very important issues is valuable.

Sure I'm a bit annoyed about the uncertainty of travel disrurpution at the weekend for me personally, but I'm damn glad that there is a Pope (and a Queen) and wish them and their successors lots of luck.

[ms-daisy-cutter.livejournal.com]

I do feel that the pope is wonderfully larger than life.

So were Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, and they were responsible for the deaths of fewer people.

Yeah, I said it. Go clutch your rosaries pearls.

[medusa-nw.livejournal.com]

I don't go around brushing incidences of child abuse by my minions under the carpet, don't go around saying being gay is a sin, don't go around saying women aren't fit to be my minions and don't go around telling people that they shouldn't be using condoms, when using condoms is the best way, other than abstinence (and don't even get me started on that one!), to stop you from getting AIDS. So I have no hesitation at all saying that I'm morally superior to the pope. If that disappoints you, so be it.

Also, the membership of the Hitler Youth would not have been brought up by anyone had he not decided to liken being an atheist to being a Nazi. It's a flippant comparison by those who aren't the supposed moral guiding light to a couple of billion people that I'm quite happy to go along with.

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

I got that too. Of course I'm morally superior to the Pope. That doesn't necessarily make me arrogant, it just means I have a really low opinion of him and his religion.

[vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com]

I feel like Malta had the best response to their Pope visit.

Spraypaint pedobear on the billboards.

Screw all this Godwin nonsense about the Hitler Youth and whatnot, what Ratzinger actually utterly failed to do in his professional capacity is much more sinister.

[ms-daisy-cutter.livejournal.com]

^ THIS. Why the fuck are we supposed to play "fair" in argumentation with this Prada-clad ambulatory dungheap? Oh, wait, because we might hurt the fee-fees of Catholics and of blowhards like the OP.

[(Anonymous)]

I suppose an actual member of the Magisterium ought to say something, if only to show that we are not just the product of Fry, Dawkins & Pullmans' fevered imaginations.

They may be amazed to learn that there is aquite a range of opinion within the Church from Liberation Theology and the Jesuits on the Left to Opus Dei and the Franciscans on the right (yup the barefoot tree huggers are complete fundies...'nuff said).

What keeps 1.3 Bn of us together is the idea that the central message makes us all part of a United Church, regardless of nation, colour, class or indeed the Holy Father of the moment.

Incidently I think the GDP of the Church must be fairly high, otherwise I dunno where CAFOD's cash is coming from.

D

[rssefuirosu.livejournal.com]

With respect - and I really do mean that - Benedict XVI has steered as far away from the left as is possible, and this is the issue that the more conscientious objectors have rather than anything else. There have been plenty of opportunities to bring the whole church into the modern world, and he has balked at every step.

[sherbetsaucers.livejournal.com]

My turn to salute you sir!

[ms-daisy-cutter.livejournal.com]

I am morally superior to Ratzi the Nazi. I have never protected any child molesters from justice.

Gawd, what a pompous, self-important wanker you are. With a real hard-on for authority figures. Whose photo are you fisting off to tonight, Davy - Ratzi's, or Bill Gates'?

And by the way:

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Whose photo are you fisting off to tonight, Davy - Ratzi's, or Bill Gates'?

Don't be silly! It'll be a picture of me, same as it is every night.