The problem with this test...
Feb. 3rd, 2003 12:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
davywavy...is that it presumes liberalism and libertarianism are the same thing.
Far-Left Liberal
Where do you fall on the liberal - conservative political spectrum? (United States)
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Far-Left Liberal
Where do you fall on the liberal - conservative political spectrum? (United States)
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A case - New York City's water
As NYC grew, there quickly became a pressing water issue. The Hudson was polluted by industry who were not accountable (laissez-faire economic policy by government), and there was virtually nonexistant water distribution infrastructure. Those with money procured water delivery services, by horse-drawn wagon, in large barrels from far upstate and its fresh mountain springs. The poor, well, they became diseased and were treated as so much filth that embodied the streets. It quickly became a free market bonanza, with water purveyors of all kinds and qualities hitting the market. A mad network of competing pipes from rival companies was being built, and there were no standards to speak of.
At some point, the city elders recognised the overwhelming need for a proper water solution so plonked down the tremendous capital to buy rights to upstate water resources and to pipe it in to the city. The price for water was set at very near free, to the benefit of the city's poorest, which lead to higher productivity and greater overall urban value.
I know of similar development histories for industrial England.
Frankly, a more efficient less-materially wasteful solution came about due to this government intervention...and propelled NYC to early megacity status.
In a 'practical' libertarian situation, I don't think such an intervention would be supported. After all people were looking out for themselves, and it really wasn't a government issue ... certainly not one based upon the social values at the time.
Re: A case - New York City's water
Date: 2003-02-05 01:21 am (UTC)So they built the London sewer infrastructure, which was entirely funded by public subscription. No central funds were used in the project.
You can make the point both ways.
A case, a case, my kingdom for a case!
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Re: A case, a case, my kingdom for a case!
Date: 2003-02-05 08:22 am (UTC)I can dream, n'est pas - and I have the advantage of supporting a system that has not been demonstrably shown to fail every time.
Re: A case, a case, my kingdom for a case!
Well, there's no perfection, in human society least of all ... we only muddle through as best we can. And, no insult intended, but at least socialist/capitalist/anarcho/totalitarian/utopian/religious/feudal/etc. philosophies have taken their turn at the muddle...which makes them superior in my view.
Engage the world!
:-)
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Re: A case, a case, my kingdom for a case!
Date: 2003-02-06 03:15 am (UTC)Re: A case, a case, my kingdom for a case!
Re: A case, a case, my kingdom for a case!
Date: 2003-02-06 08:30 am (UTC)Even if a concept is shown to be a crippling failure in every respect, it's still better than one that hasn't been tested?
Failure is better than dreams?
Re: A case, a case, my kingdom for a case!
Date: 2003-02-06 05:55 pm (UTC)Well besides the fact that I don't think any political concept has 'shown to be a crippling failure in *every* respect,'^ absolutely yes. Only by trying them out can one find the flaws and reform or jettison as needed.
Failure is better than dreams?
Yes, fantasies are so very boring after a while ... far better to give them a shot and see how they do. Idea realised is far more exciting than mere idea. It also the only way to really see them grow (read on).
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^I find the relative success or failure of a given political philosophy usually comes down to a matter of scale. Religious-mandated dictatorships are hideous at the scale of city and empire, but they are a highly effective means of getting there...to form a nation of people of common purpose and identity out of scattered tribes or villages (e.g. Egypt); whilst being very stable and even just at other scales. This is revisited today in voluntary religious camps, monastaries (what Brother Prior says, goes), and some cults.
Democracy barely worked for the quibbling city-states of Greece, and ultimately the concept needed to be reformed to various forms of Republicanism (with the vital 'social glue' of corruption) at the scale of Pax Romana and beyond.
Going back to Athenian democracy, it is worth remembering that it was paved on the backs of war slaves AND was ultimately trumped (even helped) by Spartan dictatorship.
Powerful stuff, and one wouldn't have your 'libertarian' concepts if the striving of those earlier 'one man, one vote' memes weren't tried out.
Economically, much the same can be said about capitalism...Adam Smith's original concept was very socialist in its valuation of the individual, and that in reality, we still haven't achieved that particular vision. Ask someone about capitalism in the 1890s and it was clearly a 'crippling failure' because of its disenfranchisement of the worker. Smartly, the meme evolved to such an extent that the union is severely weakened (virtually moribund even) in most economic sectors of the US...the worker feels they have a stake in the business and can influence the result. ... even if it's an 'everyone down in flames together' result for the likes of worker-owned United Airlines.
The excesses of management during the 1990s of the mega-corps will again pose the challenge of reform-for-survival to the capitalist meme.