Fizz fizz bubble bubble fizz
Sep. 5th, 2002 11:59 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
davywavyGosh, many things bubbling & fizzing in what I laughingly call my brain…
I just bothered to sit down & read the last week of nonsense on the Uk-General (for those of you who don’t know, it’s a forum for bitching & spite masquerading as a general news list hosted by a Gaming society I’m a member of), and some things struck me.
1) Whenever anyone says, “Let’s have some common sense!” or similar comment, what they’re actually saying is: “Everyone agree with me or you’re wrong!”
2) Those people arguing against the idea of the contents of the Livejournals being made more accessible to the general public are missing the point of the Internet – that is…it’s already in the public domain!
As an example, I recently posted up a short story (“Asasabulum”, scroll down if you haven’t read it, it’s on here somewhere) to my LJ. What this has done is ensure that no publisher will ever buy that story from me. Why? Because I’ve put it into the public domain. Anyone can surf right in a read it, and so I’ve negated any resale worth that tale may have had. Fortunately I’m comfortable enough that I don’t have to worry about selling the stuff I write and can write for a hobby, but you see my point, I hope.
In the same way, the reality of LJ (unless you go friends only) is that it’s in the public domain. People claiming that their LJ is ‘private space’ just for them and their friends are talking nonsense, both in terms of logistics (see the random button? That means that anyone can read your words – I pick up readers that way) and accessibility. I post here because I want as wide an audience as possible to read my stuff. If you don’t want a wide audience to read your stuff, why are you posting to a public access channel? I don’t understand? Why not just post to your friends, or set up your own list? Why use something that is so public and then try and hide behind mealy-mouthed justifications?
Frankly, if someone wants to say something, I’d respect them a lot more if they had the courage of their convictions just to acknowledge there may be consequences, rather than just squealing like a frightened pig when anyone suggests the possibility.
3) The primary defence of people trying to stop the Cam looking at their posts, when cut down to the bone, seems to be “So I can act like a petulant 12-year-old and you can’t stop me, ner-ne-ner-ne-ner-ner.” Well, that’s true, they can. But why would anyone want to use that as a defence?
Once again, humanity has left me feeling rather confused, cold, and lonely.
I just bothered to sit down & read the last week of nonsense on the Uk-General (for those of you who don’t know, it’s a forum for bitching & spite masquerading as a general news list hosted by a Gaming society I’m a member of), and some things struck me.
1) Whenever anyone says, “Let’s have some common sense!” or similar comment, what they’re actually saying is: “Everyone agree with me or you’re wrong!”
2) Those people arguing against the idea of the contents of the Livejournals being made more accessible to the general public are missing the point of the Internet – that is…it’s already in the public domain!
As an example, I recently posted up a short story (“Asasabulum”, scroll down if you haven’t read it, it’s on here somewhere) to my LJ. What this has done is ensure that no publisher will ever buy that story from me. Why? Because I’ve put it into the public domain. Anyone can surf right in a read it, and so I’ve negated any resale worth that tale may have had. Fortunately I’m comfortable enough that I don’t have to worry about selling the stuff I write and can write for a hobby, but you see my point, I hope.
In the same way, the reality of LJ (unless you go friends only) is that it’s in the public domain. People claiming that their LJ is ‘private space’ just for them and their friends are talking nonsense, both in terms of logistics (see the random button? That means that anyone can read your words – I pick up readers that way) and accessibility. I post here because I want as wide an audience as possible to read my stuff. If you don’t want a wide audience to read your stuff, why are you posting to a public access channel? I don’t understand? Why not just post to your friends, or set up your own list? Why use something that is so public and then try and hide behind mealy-mouthed justifications?
Frankly, if someone wants to say something, I’d respect them a lot more if they had the courage of their convictions just to acknowledge there may be consequences, rather than just squealing like a frightened pig when anyone suggests the possibility.
3) The primary defence of people trying to stop the Cam looking at their posts, when cut down to the bone, seems to be “So I can act like a petulant 12-year-old and you can’t stop me, ner-ne-ner-ne-ner-ner.” Well, that’s true, they can. But why would anyone want to use that as a defence?
Once again, humanity has left me feeling rather confused, cold, and lonely.
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no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 04:09 am (UTC)Personally I was expecting two fat bouncer type security blokes to seperate the two sides and then Jerry Springer to pop up and explain the moral of the story, whilst the audience took verbal pot shots at both sides in the "your momma so.." sense.
ah well
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 04:20 am (UTC)Re:
Date: 2002-09-05 05:25 am (UTC)It so is like that whenever it gets onto a topic of some emotive type to people actually thats any topic other than can someone tell me what games are on this weekend please, I'm sure thats gonna get heated one of these days by someone saying this isn't a list for that you should be asking camUK - whatgamesareonthisweekend at yahoogroups..
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 04:23 am (UTC)Re:
Date: 2002-09-05 05:30 am (UTC)There are other reasons like people wanting to speak openly on topics and to have discussions about the world and deep philosophical stuff, personal stuff though should be kept rather limited in my opinion (ie friends only etc)but then I'm a private person. I tend only to post lemming tests and the odd innane comment on public postings.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 04:33 am (UTC)However some post public so that their friends without accounts can read.
*shrugs*
Personally anything I don't care people knowing or hearing I leave public, anything else is locked to various degrees.
hmmmm? Good points though.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 04:35 am (UTC)But then why use that as an excuse? if they wanted to post stuff that *only* their friends could read, then that's what we have email for - just set up a mail group to get the same effect without the public aspect.
To post something publically and then claim it is purely for private consumption is, let's face it, bollocks.
Re:
Date: 2002-09-05 04:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 04:53 am (UTC)The main argument should be, though, whether the Cam can do anything being written/said on non-official channels/websites/down the pub etc. and where to draw the line.
When I'm down the Graduate on a Tuesday and talk to other members, I put down my opionions very clearly, I will be a lot more diplomatic when there's a game on (same place, different context), to a higher degree when I was still an officer.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 04:58 am (UTC)A lot more of my journal would be public since I'm quite happy for people to see most of it, apart from the fact that I bitch about my work a lot. So that's on a friends group.
Discretion, sometimes, is the better part of valour ;).
Krystyna
Re:
Date: 2002-09-05 05:42 am (UTC)"Frankly, if someone wants to say something publicly..."
That would ahve made my point better, I think.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 05:02 am (UTC)Well, I thought DW's idea was pretty silly to be honest. I'm with Rikk. Why put it all in one handy spot, so people can read all the abuse they get? Doesn't sound that fantastic an idea to me. But it was more the idea that he was prepared to put LJs on there with viewpoints he disagreed with and felt "would bring the society into disrepute" that concerned me.
That said, after repeated poking on email, he has said it will be just abuse. Which is better. But still, in my mind, pointless.
*shrugs*
Oh well, the more spats I see, the more disengaged I get from the whole thing. Except for the roleplaying. A couple of characters and players are keeping me here at the moment. And that's it.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 05:03 am (UTC)2) Yup, its public so you are accountable for what is said on there if it is public. No disagreement there, "Publish and Be Damned" etc. If it isnt public then put it on Friends Only or Private. Harsh but honest.
3) hurm... maybe a little simplified on your part. I belive that the beef is that the Commision for UnCammarila Activities are now monitoring things outside of the CamUK forums and the bounds of the CoC and then reporting them within the bounds of it. Its a worry about the thin end of the wedge rather than the wish to go 'you smell of weewee' though, yes, I would accept that that is a small part of it.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 05:31 am (UTC)Sure, if I put something up public, it's public. Any random person might wander along.
Doesn't mean I feel comfortable with having someone from my roleplaying society snooping around just in case I take it into my head to abuse someone.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 07:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 07:56 am (UTC)Seems simple enough...
Date: 2002-09-05 08:13 pm (UTC)Ideally... don't abuse them.
Realistically... don't abuse them where they can see it. If you do, expect consequences.
Re: Seems simple enough...
Date: 2002-09-06 01:55 am (UTC)I'd respect many of the people involved in this debate a great deal more if they had the courage of their convictions, and were prepared to stand behind the consequences of their actions.
Re: Seems simple enough...
Date: 2002-09-06 03:15 am (UTC)However, I am not at all sure that this justifies people from my role playing society 'keeping tabs' on my every act.
I do many things in the public domain. I have a job. I write. I do lots of non-Cam related roleplaying activity.
Is it acceptable for the Cam to check up on me in those places? Will someone wish to censor every word I submit for publication? Does someone want to come round and check that my day job is Coc-compliant? If not, why is it acceptable to 'keep tabs' on LJs?
I wouldn't wish to argue that my LJ is 'private' (though someone on my friends list could 'snitch' on me). I would wish to argue that my LJ is not part of the Cam.
Re: Seems simple enough...
Date: 2002-09-06 04:17 am (UTC)They've got just as much right to do so as anyone has to post what they like to the public domain. Some people might find it creepy that someone might want to read their writings solely for this purpose (let's face it, I do), but there's no reasonable argument to say that they can't.
If you think that this amounts to cyber-stalking, there are laws that deal with that sort of thing.
Re: Seems simple enough...
Date: 2002-09-06 06:36 am (UTC)Agreed. No one should ever say X about Y in a LiveJournal that they're not prepared to say to Y's face.
Re: Seems simple enough...
Date: 2002-09-06 06:57 am (UTC)That's all I was trying to say...
Re: Seems simple enough...
Date: 2002-09-06 03:20 am (UTC)Rather; Have the courage of your convictions. Say stuff to or about people in media where you expect them to see it, and deal with their reactions.
The part that has got me riled is the of people claiming public statements are private or intended for the consumption of a small group. I try not to say anything about people that I wouldn't say to them directly. It's somehting to encourage, methinks.
For example: Yourself. I consider your petulant and spiteful witch hunt against Grim to be downright pathetic on your part, and I've lost a lot of respect which I once had for you as a result of it.
I'll tell him what I think of his side to him. That way, there's no confusion.
Re: Seems simple enough...
Date: 2002-09-06 06:43 am (UTC)There does appear to be a bit of hypocracy there...
Person 1: "I have the right to call X a fucknugget!"
Person 2: "Well it's mean to call X a fucknugget where X can see it... why not take it private, where you can call X a fucknugget to a select audience all you want?"
Person 1: "Never! It's my webpage, and if I want to call X a fucknugget where the wrold can see, I shall, henceforth and forevermore! Muhahahahahahah!"
Person 2: "Sigh. Sad that this is as far as you've grown up."
Person 3: "Interesting philosophy... in that case, you wouldn't mind if I take every time you call X a fucknugget and record it on my webpage, would you?"
Person 1: "Yes, I mind! You have no right to invade my personal webpage!"
Looks like Person 1 wants it both ways. And he doesn't get to have it. And "Person 1" is likely the type who gets confused between "legal rights" and "personal desires" and can quote vast chunks of half-comprehended legalese verbatim, but doesn't really know what it means.
Oddly enough, just like your prototypical Anarch PC.
For example: Yourself. I consider your petulant and spiteful witch hunt against Grim to be downright pathetic on your part, and I've lost a lot of respect which I once had for you as a result of it.
Fair enough... we all have our opinions, and I wouldn't expect you to understand mine without the stereotypical mile in my shoes.
I'll tell him what I think of his side to him. That way, there's no confusion.
One could hardly ask for anything more.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 05:53 am (UTC)Posting on LJ is a bit like chatting in a Pub - yes, you may intend for only your friends to be paying attention, but anyone there can over hear you. Or it is the equivalent of standing on a Soap box at speakers corner, soliciting for attention!
I am 'in the pub' - I trust that the others in the LJ 'pub' are friendly decent people who can join my 'conversation' if they want. I listen into other 'conversations', not just those on my friends list, and I try behave myself when commenting.
Re:
Date: 2002-09-05 06:44 am (UTC)A better analogy to my mind would be putting a small ad in the announcements section of the paper - people don't have to read that section, but if they do then there's no control over who turns to that page, or even who buys that particular newspaper.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 07:33 am (UTC)The illusion of semi-privicy of the LJ is [i think] to do with the fact that to know how to read my LJ you need to what my LJ-user name is.
So, the poor innocent thinks, if I don't give my LJname out then only the people I tell will read my journal? Right?
Wrong. cause if I don't tell you, one of my friends may, or someone follows 'friends of' links or does friendsfriends or we join the same community or we just randomly find each other due to similar interests.
But there is an ILLUSION of semi-privicy, like checking to see who is listening in a pub.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 07:42 am (UTC)When it comes down to it, I don't say anything about anyone on here that I wouldn't be prepared to say face-to-face. it's the safest thing to do.
I wish the majority of others did likewise.
Agree!
Date: 2002-09-05 07:50 am (UTC)One other analogy I tried was, oddly, clothing. What you wear is on public view, but you don't expect people to complain about sartorial inelligance. You do, or should, expect people to comment if your current covering is quite inappropriate or potentially dangerous. On the other hand you don't expect people to get away with rape just cause you wore a mini-skirt.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-05 09:17 am (UTC)Open message to Mr. Wade's readership
No, not that sort of fantasies.
Re: Open message to Mr. Wade's readership
Date: 2002-09-05 07:46 am (UTC)Re: Open message to Mr. Wade's readership
Date: 2002-09-05 10:28 am (UTC)Re: Open message to Mr. Wade's readership
Re: Open message to Mr. Wade's readership
Date: 2002-09-05 02:17 pm (UTC)Re: Open message to Mr. Wade's readership
Date: 2002-09-05 02:51 pm (UTC)(kills Dave and Jenny)
no subject
Date: 2002-09-06 12:06 am (UTC)BUT when a society starts to govern my life and behaviour outside of that society, then it becomes a Cult. And that is where the Cam is heading in a very rapid way if certain people get their way.
I've been told that there are things I can and cannot say even away from cam events, even in my own home! Excuse me while I say "F*ck off" to anyone who tries to say that.
Re:
Date: 2002-09-06 01:45 am (UTC)And many, many people have used the argument that their LJ is 'private', which it demonstrably isn't. I don't think you're one of them, but I was pointing out what a crap argument that is.
Who said I agreed with anyone censoring you? Don't be so defensive!
Re:
Date: 2002-09-06 02:04 am (UTC)Halleluah sister!
Date: 2002-09-06 02:19 am (UTC)I SO agree - RP is a HOBBY, it does not define who I am any more than anything else I do.
Erk - was going to say more but I am geting a windows error :(
Gnng...
Date: 2002-09-06 11:15 am (UTC)1 - No, this isn't true. Common sense is however rarely as common as it first seems. The whole thing has been hijacked by an overly PC witchhunt and the bruised ego of a man who is frankly a "Throbbing head-end" to quote my esteemed friend Mr Marment who is so better with that sort of turn of phrase than I am. If he'd just admit it's a personal thing we might get some progress rather than dragging everyone down to hell.
2 - The internet is not like normal media. Repeat as necessary. While LJ's are posted onto the 'internet' this does not make them public.
Let's use a metaphore.
There is a great big library - The Internet, and in it many millions of people mill around looking at various things (mostly pornography).
In some areas there are desks staffed by helpers who know where everything is in the library.
In as much as anything in the library can be called 'public' (You need a special library card to gain entry and this usually costs money) it is the books and articles these people can help you find.
If you ask them for "So-and-so's Livejournal" they'll give you a blank look.
Here and there in the library, hidden away where you can't JUST stumble on them are journals which aren't in any card catalogues. If you don't know specifically where to look you won't find them though each one has directions to a few others.
Passers by won't see them and some pages are in cipher.
LJ's aren't exactly public, neither are a lot of webpages. You need more definitions than 'public' and 'private' given the nature of the net. Old thinking simply doesn't apply.
Now... saying things to people's faces.
Love to, trouble is most of them we only meet at Cam games, where we can't. The only place to blow off steam and bitch amongst friends is the internet and livejournal is one safe facet of that. Take it away and there is nowhere for the pressure to bleed off.
Now... what happens when you increase pressure in a sealed container?
Consequences, sure, but it's fuck all, I'll repeat that for the hard of understanding...
F U C K A L L
To do with the Camarilla.
If Dave wants to put such stuff up on a webpage more power to him, so long as he puts things in context I have no beef with it and stand by pretty much everything I've ever said about anybody, including you.
Humanity has left you confused, cold and lonely because you don't think, behave or act like a human being to be brutally honest. You don't seem to understand human emotion as it applies to situations.
I don't mind people looking at my posts, if they ask me I can even tell them where to look, I do mind the comments being presented without context and amongst the colourful prose of less capable insulters with no basis for their animosity.
no subject
Date: 2002-09-10 04:35 am (UTC)