The Golden Compass

[davywavy]

One thing that keeps on coming up about Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials Trilogy is that it contains, apparently, anti-religious sentiment.
I have to say that when I read it this passed me by entirely, but Evangelical Christians in the 'states are burbling in their usual frothing fashion about 'foisting atheism on children', and I've read atheists (seemingly) everywhere rattling on about how they approve of doing just that.
In as far as I can remember from reading the books, the villains are the 'Magisterium', a church who worship a god who turns out just to be the 'first angel' who is pretending to be a god. Now, as far as I remember from reading Paradise Lost, the 'first angel' who pretends to be god is usually referred to as Lucifer, or the Devil.
The reaction to this leaves me slightly boggling. Obviously Pullman's grasp of theology is so poor that he's written a book in which the villains are Satanists whilst thinking he's doing the exact opposite, but what is so depressing is just how many people - atheists and folks of religious bent - he's got to go along with him in this. You'd think that people who feel so strongly about a subject - either positively or negatively - would know a little more about their subject before they started spouting off, wouldn't you?
But then again, this is the internet. Ignorance isn't so much a hindrance as an advantage round here.

Comments

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

I absolutely loved the first book with its pan-dimensional adventuring. The second book was still OK but the last one made me really uncomfortable.

Is atheism the same as saying "religion is bad"? It's the latter the book seemed to be saying. I'm not religious by any means but I didn't like it.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

The first book was jolly entertaining. It's the latter two, when he starts writing about Metaphysics and plainly knows nothing about it, where it all goes downhill.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

*nods*
I know very little so I can't quantify Pullmann's knowledge. I was just confused and when more and more religion came into it, I just wanted to stop. I also thought that after the first book it wasn't really children's material anymore.

[robinbloke.livejournal.com]

The first book was pretty good, I rather enjoyed it. The second book annoyed me and by the time Lyra had <Item> stolen I had stopped caring if she got it back or if she was run over by a bus. I stopped reading at that point.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Yes, the steampunk and cyber-bears and so forth were very imaginative and fun. Unfortunately it seems he only had one good idea and once he'd used that all he had to preach from was his wonky soapbox.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

The 'Religion is bad' message, I'd say, is seriously undermined when we find out that that every religious person in the book turns out to have been worshipping the devil all along.
I'd think that worshipping the devil being a bad thing is a fairly uncontentious statement and I don't understand what all the fuss is about, unless most people's grasp of such things is really, really poor.

Oh.

[belak-krin.livejournal.com]

I believe that the anti-religous issue consists of "the bad guys right, they're the church". Shocks and alarams there sir.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

The Church of Satan, as it turns out. It would help if both sides read to the end of the sentence before making judgements, I'd say.

[drplokta]

I think the problem is that, in Pullman's metaphysics, there is no "real" God in the background -- the renegade angel is all there is. So in his world, the only choices you have are Satanism or atheism.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

In Pullman's metaphysics every single choice we make creates an infinity of identical copies to everything in the universe, except the things which he doesn't want it to - so I think I'm justifiably unconvinced by his grasp of such things.

[applez.livejournal.com]

So issue a fatwa and send Pullman into hiding for the rest of his natural life. ;-)

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

This is what gets me so confused - why are people getting so het up (pro- and anti-) over someone getting it wrong?
I might name a teddy bear "Random chance" because then the athiests will come after me with knives.

[applez.livejournal.com]

Ha, you know atheists are no where near organised enough for that! ;-)

[applez.livejournal.com]

Also, the point I was making was the utter irrelevance of consistency. After all, even if one manages to write a book consistent with both the original religious narrative and subsequent doctrine (thanks CS Lewis), it doesn't make it any more 'right' than any other...

This conversation can go many directions, so I'll stop there.

[zenicurean.livejournal.com]

The guy in charge of our wrought idols department says the phrase is "possible probabilism at the micro level". Or what, he didn't say.

[elbly.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's because I don't really think on a deeper level when I'm reading fiction, but I just enjoyed a well written book and didn't really pay any attention to hidden messages... because it's fiction.

I personally thought the second and third books were better than the first, but at the end of the day - who cares? It's just a story.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

That's a good attitude to take towards it. It surprises me that some people are complaining because it's anti-religious and others are going 'Great! It's anti-religion lolx0r!"
It's a book, and if you take it more seriously than that then it collapses very quickly.

[fionnghuala.livejournal.com]

I think the whole point with religious-types is that they don't look too closely at issues of who's good and evil, or the fine-detail of the implications of their own belief.

Isn't there something about a leap of faith and then you just believe everything you're told?

[fionnghuala.livejournal.com]

Maybe I should modify that to 'religious nutter types' to avoid offense.

And if my observations on YouTube are to be believed, being an atheist in parts of the states is to be in a constant rhetorical battle with the Christers, where any small victory is to be celebrated, and every small detail of bollocks to be argued over.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Possibly so, but I don't think it helps anyone's case to claim getting something demonstrably (and quickly so) wrong as a victory?

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Isn't there something about a leap of faith and then you just believe everything you're told

Not that I've ever encountered in anything I've ever read about Theology or Metaphysics, except as a pretty common misrepresentation?

[fionnghuala.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I'm talking purely in terms of pretty common misrepresentation. Or, as us sociologists call it, lived experience... or something like that.

[sherbetsaucers.livejournal.com]

And it's just that kind of thinking that's condeming you to hell.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Quite the opposite - I expect to be swept bodily up to heaven, like the prophet Elijah.

[sherbetsaucers.livejournal.com]

Oh, oh, bags on your coat! (See, that's a biblical reference to thingy, Elish or what ever, picking up the mantle. I'm nto quite as dumb as I look you know)

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Elisha!
I suspect that what might have happened is that Elisha thought "Gosh, that's a nice coat" before bopping Elijah on the head and making up a cover story, but who's to say for sure?

[sherbetsaucers.livejournal.com]

And it's just that kind of thinking that's condeming you to hell.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Have you seen my natty new coat?

[sherbetsaucers.livejournal.com]

Was that the one I saw you wearing just after I'd noticed that guy and his who football teams worth of brothers staggering around, dazed and confused?

It is a lovely coat mind you.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

I say, what are you doing with that club?

[sherbetsaucers.livejournal.com]

It's off to Egypt for YOU old son!

(And it's just that kind of thinking that's condeming me to hell.)

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Tsk. A thousand years of bondage until god kills their kids. Here we go again.

[sherbetsaucers.livejournal.com]

You know, a burning bush might have been a nicer way of doing things.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

That's your solution to everything.

[sherbetsaucers.livejournal.com]

Where as you're always looking for the frogs. I mean... FROGS!

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

You see, I may be the only person in thinks that the Golden Compass is pretty non-atheist. It is all about a world in which angels are real, in which Adam and Eve are real, and in which Original Sin is real, albeit with the slant that it is necessary for humans to be what we want our race to be - independent.

That's not very atheistic - atheism mostly seems to teach that there is no God, and instead we live in a miserably dull, grey and scientific world.

That may just be my slightly odd take on it, however, and I'm aware I'm prone to reading books as I want them to be, as opposed to how they were intended.

[zenicurean.livejournal.com]

instead we live in a miserably dull, grey... world.

We teach nothing of the sort. I mean, take the platypus. Those things are an absolute blast. And don't even get me started on the fruits of double distillation in oak casks civilisation.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

No, I came away with the impression it was rather pro-religion too. Pullman later claiming exactly the opposite merely confirmed my opinion that he's not a very good writer, considering he failed to get across his primary philosophical point despite over a thousand pages of text in which to do it.

[(Anonymous)]

I had intended to say something about the new bigotry, but suddenly became overwhelmed by depression and decided to drink heavily instead.
Gimme smells & bells anyday.

DOD

[(Anonymous)]

You're depressed? I'm stuck in a 'business hotel' in Mishima for 3 weeks. I can see why so may people here kill themselves.

[(Anonymous)]

I already have first dibs

D