Arrogance? Insularity? I dunno

[davywavy]

Why is it that some people are incapable of understanding that there is a difference between "Not listening" and "Not agreeing"?

Having recently been in an argument with someone, I have finally withdrawn from it when I realised that the person in qustion wasn't prepared to accept that I didn't agree with his point and the only possible reason that he hasn't won me over is that I'm not listening.

I find this POV surprisingly arrogant; to assume that your argument is so good that all who hear it shall be won over (so long as they listen) *is* arrogant, I'm sure. Perhaps alternatively it's an inability to understand that others see the world differently, or that your argument isn't that convincing, or that there may be a better way of doing things (in others eyes, anyway). In short, a point of view that differs from your own, and your own argument is of insufficient merit or strength to change that point of view as it does not hold up to counterargument.

Being disagreed with is a part of life - we all come to understand, as we grow, that sometimes others do not see the same world that we do. Sometimes, philosophical or personal reasons mean that we do not see eye to eye with others. I've always felt that in such a situation the best thing to do is understand that you aren't going to agree and either try to find an alternative solution, and try and work around the problem to acheive an acceptable solution. It saddens me that many people, rather than taking action to achieve what they want, would rather bitch because others refuse to take it for them.

Comments

[quisalan.livejournal.com]

All I have to say is that my Dad does this when he's drunk and it absolutely drives me up the wall.

*small popping noises*

Krystyna

[robinbloke.livejournal.com]

Would it be arrogant to believe that everyone should be able to reach a compromise or an alternative solution?

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Almost certainly, you bastard.

This is the thing; I don't know the causes of it. I often cease to bother arguing, agree to disagree like a mature adult, and then set about working out ways to get what I want using other methods Accusing people of not listening and sulking just because they dont' agree is...alien to me.

[eddyfate.livejournal.com]

Well, I have sometimes accused others of not listening to my arguments, but usually it's only when their counter-argument makes no sense at all, or they appear to be agreeing with me while arguing with me.

But if you explain, "Yes, I understand, I just don't agree" - then we start to drift into arrogance at that point.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

In a case of "My way is better than your way!", where neither idea has been tried, and either is worth a go...? I've said that I see theri point, I just disagree with it, based on past experience and my percpetion of the world, but they're not having that, oh no siree...

For once I'm actually being properly bitter about something. Bah!

[sesquipedality.livejournal.com]

Sounds just like a standard Cam rules "discussion".

(My turn to be bitter.)

Jay and Silent Bob on rules discussions

[eddyfate.livejournal.com]

Tell me about it. I'm about sick of rules "discussions", and I'm not even an ST anymore. Just the backlash from OTHER people who ARE in them is enough to make me want to pull Jay and Silent Bob tactics.
--
"Excuse me, are you the New Zealand ANST Spunkmonkey?"

"Ya..."

"Did you say last week on rulescircle, quote, 'I think we should replace all references in Changeling to cold iron with the word oxygen', followed by this thread documentation, even though you don't have any authority over Changeling?" [drops three inch high stack of printed emails on the ground]

"Ya..."

"Get him." [Much violence ensues.]

Re: Jay and Silent Bob on rules discussions

[sesquipedality.livejournal.com]

Oh, I shall hang onto that sweet sweet mental image in the weeks to come.

Re: Jay and Silent Bob on rules discussions

[eddyfate.livejournal.com]

If you're particularly in the need for challenge, do it in order of their Cam number.

Re:

[eddyfate.livejournal.com]

That's a largely unsolvable argument, until both are tried, and succeeds or fails.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

yes, I know. And the discussion revolves about somenoe shouting "I want you to do it my way", but being incapable of indicating why their way is demonstrably better to the alternatives, saving an emotional conviction.

Re:

[eddyfate.livejournal.com]

Ah, the "This is better, because *I* thought of it" argument?

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Well, leaving aside the specifics...I prefer my version, and their version doesn't have any factors that make me think it's a better idea, it's just another idea. I've heard them out, and said "I've heard your argument, and I disagree with your reasoning, so lets try my way (i.e. the one that is already in place and being used) and if it doesn't work, we can always change it." I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I'd also like the apportunity for the proof to go either way before people resort to abuse :)

But I'm not listening, you see...

Re:

[eddyfate.livejournal.com]

You bastard! :-P

Thats what pisses me off

[ex-grimjim.livejournal.com]

But in reverse.
People who say "No" to ideas you present, but can offer no actual substansive argument as to why, or why their way is better, or why a certain rule is enforced.

A lot of the problem is that people invest too much of themselves in their ideas, so by attacking the idea or the establishment they see you as by extension attacking them.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

You aren't being bitter. You're being frustrated by somebody who refuses, or is unable, to see that there are more than one point of view, that neither is "right" or "wrong" in absolute terms, that both depend on personal opinions & preferences, and that the "stuck record" way of getting what you want is designed for customer service counters and not strategic planning discussions.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

And, if it's the argument I'm thinking of, the said person making me consider physical violence before my blood pressure gets any higher :)

You did say you wanted a girlfriend with opinions :p

[eddyfate.livejournal.com]

See above on "Jay and Silent Bob discuss rules". :-)

[robinbloke.livejournal.com]

Arguments tire and bore me very quickly; debates don't; there's probably little real difference save for the fact that I'd say a debate is an exchange of ideas and progression of mutual knowledge on a subject, whereas an argument is where you try and make the other side agree with you.

[borusa.livejournal.com]

Robin...that's not always possible

Spurious example : if you're looking at turning left or right...straight on is only an option if there isn't a wall in the way.

[robinbloke.livejournal.com]

I was actually ribbing Dave as much as making a serious point (note the winking icon)
But yes, I'd agree that sometimes compromise won't happen and then, at least, you can hopefully agree to disagree amicably rather than turning it into a flamewar or something.

[kathminchin.livejournal.com]

Hugz

and be thankful you are no longer NC. I think I know who you're talking about.

And my inbox has already been graced by "but I thought we were doing it this way..."

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Tell 'em to read the Tome, and if they don't like it, change it. It's all in there. Whining and not doing anything about it is a sure-fire way to get my goat

[kathminchin.livejournal.com]

Oh believe me I did.

I then pointed out that there was no way I was going to change proceedures in the middle. And that one domain had already decdied not to utilise the 1 member 1 vote idea, and were leaving it to teir DC and DST

He seemed to think I could "make them" vote. How? Pistols at dawn? Baseball bat.

And right now I'm averaging a new complaint a week. I think I'm doing rather well to keep my temper in check.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Have you tried the 'bounce it back to the DCs/talk to teh person first" approach? It's the way to go.

[kathminchin.livejournal.com]

they've all already gone through that one :-(

I have managed to bounce several through that method, but sometimes ....

I think they expect me to wave a magic wand or something

[sherbetsaucers.livejournal.com]

I know what your talking about and what you mean. Personally, I disagree with you and agree with him. Problem is, your so comming off looking better. Ah well, at least I know I'm right. ;)

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

That's the think: I don't know that I'm right. I hope I am, and I feel that I am, but I don't know it. I've looked at as many options as I possibly could and can't help but feel this is the best one.
If I'm proven wrong then I'm proven wrong, fair enough - but to assume that I'm going to be wrong without giving either method a chance to demonstrate in practise - and then to refuse to accept that I might have a different opinion based on (what I consider to be) logic and reasoned thought...now that irritates me. I'm not pulling stuff out of the air here, you know.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

This is getting hard to talk about without being specific :)

The main reason I agree with you is that I don't see any way the outcome will affect me directly.

The main reason it's winding me up is, like you say, the appalling lack of willingness / ability to see that anyone could have a different opinion, and the belief that repetition & volume will change your mind.

[raggedhalo.livejournal.com]

In other circumstances, I might agree with the other peep in question...
However, because of how stuff works already, your way makes more sense to me...
*shrugs*
It's a personal preference thing, really.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is...and nothing more. I've just never really understood the "You don't agree with me so you're an idiot and it's all your fault you aren't convinced by my line of argument!" standpoint.

Just me bitching, really.