&quot;First of all I should say that I agree with davy&quot; - Norman Tebbit.

When I first started Tiger Form, at my first lesson, the Sensei said:
"Right. I'm going to see what you know. I'm going to attack you, and I want you to defend yourself in the best manner you can.".

He came for me, and I turned and ran.

He laughed and said "I can teach you."

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For all points - hence the reliable trump...firearms.

For point 10 - v. true, there's a reason why our species is mostly built for running. Hunting mammoths with spears? My arse! More like hurling rocks at vultures to steal the scraps. Anything tougher, we run from (unless of course we decide to stampede a herd over a cliff...yum yum!).

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you're all pussies.

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puddingcat.livejournal.com

Wheee! Your stalker's back, David!

*Sets up a barbecue and invites all for a party*

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*Laughs*

And insulting a bunch of martial artists from anonymity is the work of the brave ;)

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By your stalker? ;-)

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It's quite sweet; as previously noted I haven't had a proper stalker since 1995 and the attention is rather flattering.

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Regardless of anyone calling you a pussy (remarkably dull choice of insult) it is in fact all true. Especially the real world violence - i did fight after starting martial arts, and i only actually benefitted from it once. The rest of the time, it was a lesson in finding out that 180 degree side kicks look really great, and if you Can get a kick to connect, then its pretty much over and done with...BUT the trick is knowing when not to kick and when to kick them in the nuts. Always fear a decent Boxer as well - its the powerful punhces at unpredictable angles that does it....plus the conditioning and attitude.....

Doesn't THAT hurt your toes, by the way?

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Precisely...

It is worth remembering that most non-weapon (and then some) martial arts developed furthest as forms of *entertainment,* or as health-athletic efforts ... with only modest utility as a credible martial art.

Granted, knowing your body well enough to use as a weapon (when necessary) can be crucial in the crunch, but I'd put my money on the athletic runner first. :-)

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I've done Tae-Kwon-Do which is martial specific but has elemts of art....Wing Chun, Muay Thai, a little Escrima, Lau Gar (which is shite) and some kick boxing into the bargain, as well as some obscure forms of Gung-Fu. I have to say that the ability to break 6 inches of pine with a back kick is nothing compared to the ability to run off at high speed and live to tell about it.

Then there is always "bottle-fu" as practised on me once....its a dangerous art to which i responded with "bar-stool-jutsu. Works a lot better than placing all your hope in the reverse Elbow or Knee to the groin.....

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Sure, one also has to remember the history of these unarmed martial arts ... largely developed by the desperate in society, and with virtually NO effect on the mainstream secured with arms.

Those Japanese peasants who took up Ninja arts could never stand up against armed samurai (who were themselves the ones doing most of the 'ninja-style' assassinations anyway). Hell the shuriken's main utility was a distraction so the thrower can scamper away quickly.

Those very many Chinese secret societies and the occassional warrior monastic orders were again inconsequential against any of the great challenges to the nation...armed Imperial troops, armed invaders (Mongols, Japanese, Koreans, Westerners), and others.

The clever martial arts (now become dances) employed by slaves in the Carribbean and South America may have given the slave master's nightmares - but were no match against the matchlock. And as the Mexican peasantry knew best, a good ol' machete sure is a lot more handy...

I therefore posit that beyond healthful body hardening exercises (learning how to cope with pain and hardship is very useful, especially if one hasn't lived as a peasant), and the civilianised entertainment value of martial arts (ranging from dances, to sport, to tai chi health), their actual combat value is virtually nil - and were in fact developed by the most desperate and disarmed in society.

Now, having said all that, one can't help but be impressed when an ENTIRE DIVISION of PRC People's Army soldiers conduct a martial arts exercise/demonstration in robotic unision. Nevermind pansy marches to drum-beats. Hoo-ah! :-)

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TKD was developed by a Korean General to try and develop spiritual beliefs in face of Japanese oppression.....from ironically enough, a japanese art. Karate was developed by oppresed Okinawan Islanders, alongside the more battefield orientated styles which emphasised the Katana, Naginata, Kama and so on, which of course counted for next to nothing compared to, as you say, a matchlock.
As the Boxer Rebelion proved, Iron Shirt Chi Gung doesn't actually work when faced with british enfield rifles, and as for Capoeira, Savate and various other similar styles...well - they aren't actually that combat effective.

I'd have to guess that you could be an american type, so to riposte your statement of nil combat value - i have to say that in a culture with that much of a gun control problem, Martial Arts are fairly useless, but they DO have benefits. I know countless individuals that are hear today (relatively unscared by trials) for the only reason that they were able to succesfully employ martial arts of one sort or another against their assailants.

OR i could regail you with the true story of Grandmaster Park Jung Tae, who fought in Vietnam and had the misfortune to meet a US soldier with a .45. The Soldier went to the morgue AFTER shooting PJT and PJT went to the hospital to get the bullet removed.
As for the PRC - i've seem similar demonstrations from the Korean Tiger Division, and the Russian Spetznaz practicing Systema. They may be of little _battlefield_ use, but their utility away from their in most enrions is considerable. Nice to meet a fellow enthusiast btw..:-)

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Yes, the US does have a stupidly big gun problem - and in an odd way, I imagine martial arts could have a powerful role to play, in the following way:

1. to give people confidence in their own physicality

2. to introduce, possibly engrain, some rather vital philosophy about the in-/appropriate use of violence - and even beyond that, to its ultimate inutility.

I believe that the gun problem in the US isn't so much a problem of too many guns, but a philosophical outlook of little personal responsibility, or 'consequence-less' action that is shared across the culture. From this POV, the problem is blantantly apparent, and expressed far beyond mere gun violence, but to wider forms of pitiless violence - such as spousal-beating, rape, hit-and-run, 'road rage,' and even the non-physical violent will of curses between motorists, cyclists, pedestrians, and others who all need to share space that they really have no inherent individual right to. The (media-) reinforced cultural value of liberal individualism has left the population ill-prepared for its populated congested reality. There is imbalance.

Mind you, social engineering is mixed at best, so removing the guns is the best technical solution available. Oh what relative bliss it'd be to have a plethora of stabbings over shootings, I tell you.

Running away would at least give one a chance.

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:-)

Sounds like we have a lot of the same reading material....so i can but concur here.

1) All very significant - a whole host of people are bought to martial arts for this reason alone.

2) Of course, "learn to heal, before you learn to harm" starts the ball rolling from a Taoist point of view, and also sums up the responsibilty that a lot of people would do well to internalise - start to live with the approach that violence is always the last resort of the terminally inept and foolish.

I don't have figures for the numbers of Guns on US streets, and i also am wary of raising hackles over any sort of viewpoint i might have on the history of a culture which lead to this impasse. In many ways, with imperialism and controlling 2/3 of the world at one point, the history of the UK is one of subjugation of minority cultures, and the draconian gun laws we have now could be seen to be a reaction over the years to that....or it could be in response to the increase of gun-related crime worldwide, and by extension, violent crime worldwide.

The ill-concieved actions of those who are bought up with a lax morality, are educationally sub-normal or perhaps even entrenched in lifestyles perpetuated by crime can only add fuel to the anti gun lobby - but if people wish to do harm to others, they will ALWAYS find a way.
The very nature of morality and reality is warped by pre-concieved ideals profulgated by a media that cannot see its own impact on people seeking some form of guru (even electronic) and the sedentary lifestyles that we practise have also been contributory reasons for the recent (last 30 years) upsurge in combative arts/training and ironically enough, that can certainly be laid to blame at the feet of a lot of crime in that people feel they have the right to utilise their training, even in circumstances that would have most Instructors throwing up their hands in despair.
Now, i'm not preaching an Orwellian society of total social and emotional control, but i have to say that the real problem seems to be education.

And how to improve that in this country, i have no idea. You can lead the kids to knowledge, but very few of them seem to be open to anything thats not portrayed on media such as TV, DVD, web etc ad nauseum.

Removing the guns is a temporary soultion to the greater problem of social maladjustment and cultural diatribe that so many seen keen to ascribe to. Its a symptom of the Universe in many ways...

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(hehehe) I'm sure the Welsh, Irish and Scots would argue that the UK itself is an act of subjugation, long before the effort went global. :-)

re: leading kids to knowledge ... well, perhaps this does sound Orwellian, but there is little reason there can't be more extensive testing - beyond technique, but to reaction choices to given problem X (then the next layer of - is that even a problem? rather the sort of 'reading the crowd' training promulgated in the better police forces, like the RCMP). Likewise, it's a fabulous tutorial when the philosophy or morality is applied - such as a temple doing a public festival, or school students brought to soup kitchens and the like. The 'learning to care' ... true, these external methods are of little used to a closed individual, but that will still embed an experience that they could learn from later, should they ever contemplate it fairly.

Personally, I've long advocated a 'civics' course, applied, from K-12 in public education. Too bad the shearing of music, philosophy, Latin, and non-competative physical education was just a forerunner of insufficient books, degraded facilities and worse that far too many children contend with...even in the 'better' counties in the US (I imagine things can be as grim in the UK's North).

Removing guns is only a temporary solution, but if it produces a space of time for society to slow down, take stock of itself, debate, and take an agreed-upon path (or paths, we're a diverse world now) - I'm all for it.

I would add that philosophy and applied social goodwill certainly has its limits, after all, the cradle of many humanist philosophies, India, acts every bit as belligerently at a geopolitical level as any other 'modern' state.

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You could well be right about the "other" indigenous population of the UK - even today we have the Irish situation, and it wasn't such a very long time ago that i was told to "fuck off back to England" whilst visiting Wales....it seems the resentment that lives in cultural memory weighs much more heavily on people than current governmental attitudes. There are few, if any, external influences applied to this generation that are positive in nature - gone are the music lessons, Relegious Education, physical education and hell, even dietry sources are ignored in the face of trying to fulfil government figures for exam results - the notion of Renaissance Education where a full grounding in many subjects was considered cimpulsory has given way to ever more specialised and insular subjects which further divide allready fractutred population centres.

The North....well, again, it wasn't so long ago that a visiting Group of Cammies played a game in my local village and derided me as posh in comparison to their hometowns. I hadn't really considered that the Industrial centres of the Uk were that bereft of hope - but i think your comparison stands. Certainly there _still_ seems to be a North/South Divide in terms of Education, Facilities, and general propspects for those who make it their home.

Education is sadly lessened in scope and application these days - the humanities are all but ignored for the faceless and impersonal medium or Electronic communication, and even tho there is a limit as to the impact of applied philosophy and social awareness, i just see many of the lessons of the past being re-visited without any reference to the horros that the World Experienced originaly.
And Yes, oddly, the cradle of humanities are beset by their own problems on both social, geo-political and international levels, which is one of the great ironies of our time.

If we could allow time for the world to breath, then a discipline that intergrated many of the values of the Orginal intentions of Martial Arts would be a benefit indeed, however.....i often think the world moves far too recklessly forward to stop and contemplate the sunset. Its a great shame, but the mere fact that there are people who seem to have reached some of the same conclusions does indeed hearten me. Actually, to my own chagrin there are few more examples i can think of to add to this discussion as you seem to have hit many of the pertinent points and although i do hate "me too" type posts, i have to say that i can't fault your logic.

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I'm reminded of Flanders' & Swanns 'Song of Patriotic Prejudice at this moment...

The rottenest bits of these islands of ours,
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers,
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot,
you'll find he's a stinker as likely as not.

Personally I'm all for Scots, Welsh & Irish independence. The British derive little benefit from the union. I mean, we've stolen all their natural resources and they can'thave them back, so it isn't like we need the people any more is it?

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Yes, says quite a lot when your definition of British is so English. ;-)

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Well said.

BTW, consider yourself be-'friend(s)'-ed. :-)

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quisalan.livejournal.com

Yep, that all sounds true :)

3) This +is+ a legitimate target in my style!
10) That's always been the plan...

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Not during touch sparring, I hope.

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quisalan.livejournal.com

Yes, although the men have to wear boxes and it is verymuch +touch+ contact.

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I still think you're all pussies :D

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'course you do.
Bless.

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ex-boog351.livejournal.com

Best thing to do with these sorts is to ignore them. Whoever is doing it is just after attention whether good or bad. Same principle as phone pests.

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