Identity Cards

[davywavy]

The Government is seeking to introduce ID cards, which they somewhat nonsensically claim will protect us from International Terrorism. Given that these cards will contain retinal and fingerprint biometric data, can anyone explain to me exactly how that will protect me from blind, handless cleric Abu Hamza?

Comments

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

Big brother is closing in on us but to judge by the reactions of a load of smokers yesterday the lack of being able to have a fag when you are having a drink is more significant than this.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

That's because most people don't understand the concept of Civil Liberty.

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

If you wear cloured contact lenses or those freaky contact lenses that make you look like a vampire does it screw up retinal scanning?

[jonnyargles.livejournal.com]

Because he's in Belmarsh prison.

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

Oh, apparently I won't be living in Rawmarsh after all. Marc may be working there but we don't have to live there...he can commute

phew

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Marc is going to work in Rawmarsh?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Oh! I, er, mean...Good for him!

[tooth-fairy.livejournal.com]

why on earth did you think I was talking about moving to Rawmarsh? I'm not one of you Yorkshire types, I don't even know where it is?

He MAY be getting a job in Rawmarsh, MAY being the appropriate word.

He thought you'd laugh

[mrmmarc.livejournal.com]

(grin)
Yes.
Well, there is a great job in Rawmarsh.
Positives:
Lots of money.
Chances of lots more money.
Get to run a department the way I want to run a department.

negatives:
Rawmarsh.
That's a HUGE fuckin' negative.

(looks at the laughter)

Still, you have Wentworth to live in...
(thinks)
Parkgate, Wath, Swinton...
(shakes head)
No, no, its impossible. It will just suck won't it!!!???

[vampyrefate.livejournal.com]

He's not a terrorist, he's a preacher of hate.

ID cards do not stop preachers of hate, which is why we need to remove free speech. This way, hate cannot be preached. We will then be safe.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Shhhh! Don't let them hear you!

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

"Yeah, look at the photo on my ID card."
"Allah has punished you enough! You shall not die by my hand!"

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

LMAO that's the most amusing couplet I have seen all day

[colin-boyle.livejournal.com]

I work in biometrics consulting these days and am looking at a biometrics primarily around border control (passports, visas etc.) I'm somewhat busy now, but to summarise, I'm broadly in favour - biometrics are by far the best method of identity assurance and a National Identity Register is the best way of introducing Identity Management.

[hiromasaki.livejournal.com]

The point of the opposition (or at least one point) is not so much that Biometrics is not a good way of proving that someone is who they say they are.

The point is that the government having that information is not always a good thing, and while a centralised database containing all that information serves for a good reference for law enforcment, it only takes one breach (technical, physical, or social) for that information to also be a reference for the wrong side.

Got a good firewall? Great! Got security doors and military guarding the systems (In, I'm assuming, multiple locales)? Great! Oh, look. Someone just promised a backup administrator #20,000 for a copy of the info for everyone who lives in Yorkshire. Or you have a new entry for someone who didn't exist previously, now having a valid ID.

It doesn't solve the problem, just makes it a bit more difficult for everyone involved, with most of the burden on the law-abiding. I'd call that a patently bad idea.

[hiromasaki.livejournal.com]

Don't get me wrong, though. If I had the budget, my entire network would be on fingerprint/misc. biometric/etc. scans for passwords instead of hand-typed.

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Not only that, but it undermines the basis of English Common Law.
Unlike most legal systems, the English do not have a bill of rights; the historical reason for this is because we have the right to do anything we please which is not specifically prohibited by law. Under most legal systems, the citizen is only allowed to do those things granted as rights by the state.
Compulsory ID cards undermine this by immediately criminalising the entire population - the state requires the individual to act in a certain way, rather than prohibits them from certain actions. This is, legally speaking, a very big deal indeed.

[colin-boyle.livejournal.com]

The problem is that if someone claims an identity ("I'm Bob"), how do you know whether they are telling the truth? Current documents are easily forged, and at worst you don't even have those to fall back on, just their word as to who they are. The only thing that can assure that the identity they are claiming is not either stolen, forged or one of multiple identities they use is if you can link them back to a unique identifer and an associated unique identity. The only technology in town to establish anything close to a unique identifier is biometrics. The only way you find out what biographic data (name, DOB etc.) is associated with this identifier is through a national identity register. So if you want to crack the problem of identity, this is how you do it.

Some of your other arguments, e.g. civil liberties impacts, I have thought about but don't have time now to add my thoughts on them now, sorry.

Well,

[(Anonymous)]

You could just sit very quietly, then he wouldn't know you were there.

Steps to using the id card for protection from terrorists:

[vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com]

1. Learn the fine art of creating prison shanks
2. Apply prison shank techniques to ID card. Practise on company id, library or NI cards before implementing in real life situations. Remember to occasionally melt sides to get a nice smooth edge.
3. Repeatedly stab in the jugular anyone you see on the street that smells of cumin.*
4. Success! One of those people had to be a terrorist. Or have links with Damascus. Or something.


* Remember to advise your friends to carry a small amount of cologne with them at ALL TIMES.

[mrmmarc.livejournal.com]

I would rather have an ID card authroised and run by my government.
I want an ID card which is regulated by elected officials.
I know my givernment will not randomly send my details to the French for large amounts of cash.

I know the government won't use the data on my ID card to track everywhere I go and what I do... and if they do I can elect a differant government.
I know that the giovernment won't charge me to use my ID card.

Why7 do I say these things.
Because if ANYONE thinks we do not already have ID's cards they are insane.
We do.

They are called Bank Cards/Credit Cards.
Credit Cards are the most trusted form of Age ID there is and are used as such.
Credit Cards/bank Cards are already used as the basis of identity proof and these are not controlled by any elected officials.

They are controlled by pirvate companies.

I will oppose the intriduction of ID cards the SECOND- it becomes a jailable offense for ANY member of a bank to charge to use my credit card, to give my information to ANYONE (even their own people) and to keep records beyond what *I* dictate are records (for example- say I decide I want to buy something and keep it a secret I can ring and they will erase the record as I dictate).

Without the control over how the private sector controls information about ME (and I am talking WAY beyond the DPA here), then I want to REPLACE private sector cards as the best form of ID with public sector cards.

Terrorism?
It has NOTHING to do with terrorism. It has more to do with fraud, benefit fraud, and proof of age really.
Terrorism is a flavour of the month.
Honkum!

[davywavy.livejournal.com]

Marc...

I don't have a credit card, and I make a point of paying cash wherever I can, so they can't trace my purchases.
I have that option. It's less convenient that the alternative.
Credit Cards aren't compulsory. ID cards are.

Big difference.

[hiromasaki.livejournal.com]

I know the government won't use the data on my ID card to track everywhere I go and what I do... and if they do I can elect a differant government.

You, sir, are obviously not paranoid enough.

Government knows where you are and that you don't like them tracking you. They want to keep that power and their seats. Come election day, you get a late phone call at work that keeps you at your desk until after polls close... You have an emergency at home (pipe burst, etc). While rather far-fetched, know that any government paranoid or power-drunk enough to track all their (law-abiding) citizens is probably not above playing dirty with the elections to keep their power.

And in the US, our Auto Operator's Permit is a state-issued ID, containing nothing more than age, birthdate, photo, Height/Weight/Eye Color, and a magnetic strip with same info. It's what we use for ID cards for age verification, etc. No Operator's Permit? Then you can use bank card, etc, or a voluntary State-issued ID. (Well, Ohio is no longer voluntary, but that's neither here nor there.)

Granted, we've got a whole brouhaha going on over making these more standard from state-to-state, which I don't mind too much. It's the centralised database and mandatory RFID chip that I don't like.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

It's the fact that every fucker with the slightest inclination to look at the database [/minor exaggeration] will have access, and the fact that governemtn ALREADY sells electoral roll info to private companies for marketing purposes, so what's to stop them selling the vast amounts of info stored on our ID cards to private companies for marketing purposes?

The mantra "if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear" ALWAYS fails to take into account the fact that what is "wrong" changes from moment to moment...

[pjc50.livejournal.com]

I know the government won't use the data on my ID card to track everywhere I go and what I do... and if they do I can elect a differant government.

Why do you "know" that? There are already tracking databases for every horse and every cow in Europe; every car that enters and leaves London and everyone who travels on the Underground is tracked. There have been proposals to track every car over every mile of road. If it's feasible to track everyone everywhere all of the time, it will be done. Even if there isn't any good reason to do so.